| Author |
Topic |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction |
Posted - 2007.04.30 12:25:00 - [ 1]
I'd consider Target Navigation Prediction, and Guided missile precision, to be roughly analogous to Motion prediction.
The reason being, that rather than 'directly' increase DPS or range, they instead serve to shore up 'weaknesses' in the weapon system.
As such, I consider motion prediction 5 a must have skill.
Sadly, I don't see so much the same with GMP and TNP.
Here's the problem.
Guided missile precision, well for starters it only affects the long range missiles. I've no idea why the short range ones got excluded, but hey ho.
The real problem with it though, is that it improves your damage against smaller targets. Which is nice, but ... well basically, you're probably doing more than enough damage to a cruiser or BC anyway, given you're starting from a higher overall DPS. (A similar argument can be applied to using torps for PvP - reduced damage, but from a higher starting amount).
I'd really like to see this skill applied to the short range missiles too. Then it _might_ make my 'train to 5' list.
Target Navigation prediction on the other hand... well, as far as I can tell, against ships in approximately the same size class, the only real question is whether they're running an MWD or not. If they are, you probably won't hit for much, if they're not, your explosion velocity is 'enough'.
The problem is, with the 'explosion velocity falloff' - it's 1500m/sec in all cases.
Which means with a torp, you do damage on a target between 250m/sec - 3250 m/sec
On a rocket, you do so from 2000m/sec - 5000m/sec.
Not that much of a variance to start off with, but with the skill, the torp range goes to 375 - 3375, and the rocket 3000-6000m/sec.
Just not enough of a difference to make that last level worth training.
Here's what I'd suggest - change the explosion velocity falloff either:
a) it's the same at the (modified) explosion velocity - yes, it's a nerf to larger missiles, but nothing stops that base number being ajusted too.
b) Apply TNP to explosion velocity falloff. So your range on a torp goes up to 375 - 4875, and you range on a rocket is 3000-9000m/sec
c) create another skill, which affect explosion velocity falloff.
Does that seem reasonable? |
Kartissa Elentari |
Posted - 2007.05.03 20:45:00 - [ 2]
 Originally by: James Lyrus
Here's the problem.
Guided missile precision, well for starters it only affects the long range missiles. I've no idea why the short range ones got excluded, but hey ho.
Rockets are unguided, which makes them useful if your weapon systems are disrupted. Everything else, including FoF Missiles, gets a bonus from this skill. Originally by: James Lyrus
Target Navigation prediction on the other hand... well, as far as I can tell, against ships in approximately the same size class, the only real question is whether they're running an MWD or not.
Against ships of a smaller class, TNP helps a lot. For my first mission in a cruiser, I neglected to fit anti-frigate weapons. Only my high TNP skill allowed my heavy missiles to destroy the frigates which slipped inside my guns' optimum ranges. Originally by: James Lyrus
The problem is, with the 'explosion velocity falloff' - it's 1500m/sec in all cases.
Huh? Where did that figure come from? The explosion varies with the size of the missile. Rockets have an explosion velocity of 2000 m/s with a 20m radius, while Citadel Torpedoes explode at 125 m/s out to a 1000m radius. Any ship faster than the explosion velocity can escape the damage radius, thus taking less damage from the explosion. Target Navigation Prediction reduces the effective velocity of the target ship at the point when the warhead explodes. (It does not actually alter the target's velocity, of course.) For example: An unmodified Slasher with a standard Afterburner running has a Max Velocity of about 900 m/s. A standard Havoc Heavy Missile has an explosion velocity of 750 m/s. The Slasher can 'outrun' the explosion and take little or no damage from it. If the person who fired the missile had TNP 4, the Slasher's effective velocity becomes (900 - 40%) m/s = 900 x 0.6 = 540 m/s. Well within the explosion velocity, so the Slasher can no longer escape the damage radius and thus takes a bigger hit. From this, you can clearly see that both skills are intended for use against smaller ships, since missiles need no boost vs. equal-sized or larger ships. That is one of the main weaknesses of missile systems, and the two skills do indeed help to counter it. |
Marquis Dean
Demise and Vestige
9th Fleet |
Posted - 2007.05.03 21:03:00 - [ 3]
Originally by: Kartissa Elentari
Rockets are unguided, which makes them useful if your weapon systems are disrupted. Everything else, including FoF Missiles, gets a bonus from this skill.
Say what? |
Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari |
Posted - 2007.05.03 21:11:00 - [ 4]
Originally by: Kartissa Elentari
Originally by: James Lyrus
Here's the problem.
Guided missile precision, well for starters it only affects the long range missiles. I've no idea why the short range ones got excluded, but hey ho.
Rockets are unguided, which makes them useful if your weapon systems are disrupted. Everything else, including FoF Missiles, gets a bonus from this skill.
Originally by: James Lyrus
Target Navigation prediction on the other hand... well, as far as I can tell, against ships in approximately the same size class, the only real question is whether they're running an MWD or not.
Against ships of a smaller class, TNP helps a lot. For my first mission in a cruiser, I neglected to fit anti-frigate weapons. Only my high TNP skill allowed my heavy missiles to destroy the frigates which slipped inside my guns' optimum ranges.
Originally by: James Lyrus
The problem is, with the 'explosion velocity falloff' - it's 1500m/sec in all cases.
Huh? Where did that figure come from?
The explosion varies with the size of the missile. Rockets have an explosion velocity of 2000 m/s with a 20m radius, while Citadel Torpedoes explode at 125 m/s out to a 1000m radius. Any ship faster than the explosion velocity can escape the damage radius, thus taking less damage from the explosion.
Target Navigation Prediction reduces the effective velocity of the target ship at the point when the warhead explodes. (It does not actually alter the target's velocity, of course.)
For example: An unmodified Slasher with a standard Afterburner running has a Max Velocity of about 900 m/s. A standard Havoc Heavy Missile has an explosion velocity of 750 m/s. The Slasher can 'outrun' the explosion and take little or no damage from it.
If the person who fired the missile had TNP 4, the Slasher's effective velocity becomes (900 - 40%) m/s = 900 x 0.6 = 540 m/s. Well within the explosion velocity, so the Slasher can no longer escape the damage radius and thus takes a bigger hit.
From this, you can clearly see that both skills are intended for use against smaller ships, since missiles need no boost vs. equal-sized or larger ships. That is one of the main weaknesses of missile systems, and the two skills do indeed help to counter it.
You sir have a LOT to learn before you should comment on well thought out suggestions with what is basically a revelation of lack of game mechanic knowledge. There are a lot more weapons not affected by GMP. Rockets, HAMs, Torps. And guided/unguided is pure fluff and has no impact in game whatsoever. Not to mention that torps being unguided doesn't make much sense in the first place... And it is not your TMP skill that allows you to kill those frigs, it is simply that higher class missiles still do a whole lot of damage against smaller class ships. TMP skill actually probaly has little to no impact on PvE anyway, it only becomes meaningful in PvP where many enemies are actually fast even AFTER they reached their orbit distance. In PvE, I can kill frigs with torps... And the exp velocity falloff determines the rate at which the damage from the missile is reduced with target speed higher than exp velocity. This is part of your simplistic explanation of a more complex process. So please, get whole clue first, post later :P I actually agree with James on pretty much all accounts. Even though torps affected by GMP might be a lil overpowered. What I would like to see is GMP and the rigs/implants affecting the Javelin versions of the 'unguided' missiles. |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction |
Posted - 2007.05.03 21:13:00 - [ 5]
Originally by: Kartissa Elentari
Originally by: James Lyrus
Here's the problem.
Guided missile precision, well for starters it only affects the long range missiles. I've no idea why the short range ones got excluded, but hey ho.
Rockets are unguided, which makes them useful if your weapon systems are disrupted. Everything else, including FoF Missiles, gets a bonus from this skill.
Actually, you don't get it on Heavy Assault missiles, or torpedos either. I don't know quite why though. Quote:
Originally by: James Lyrus
Target Navigation prediction on the other hand... well, as far as I can tell, against ships in approximately the same size class, the only real question is whether they're running an MWD or not.
Against ships of a smaller class, TNP helps a lot. For my first mission in a cruiser, I neglected to fit anti-frigate weapons. Only my high TNP skill allowed my heavy missiles to destroy the frigates which slipped inside my guns' optimum ranges.
Really? Your heavy missiles should be hitting for full damage any thing moving up to 750m/sec. OK, I may not have been paying attention, but I'm fairly sure _most_ NPC frigates orbit slower than that. PC frigates is a different matter, true, but then, as I said, the question isn't 'how fast' its 'are they running a MWD' Quote:
Originally by: James Lyrus
The problem is, with the 'explosion velocity falloff' - it's 1500m/sec in all cases.
Huh? Where did that figure come from?
The explosion varies with the size of the missile. Rockets have an explosion velocity of 2000 m/s with a 20m radius, while Citadel Torpedoes explode at 125 m/s out to a 1000m radius. Any ship faster than the explosion velocity can escape the damage radius, thus taking less damage from the explosion.
Target Navigation Prediction reduces the effective velocity of the target ship at the point when the warhead explodes. (It does not actually alter the target's velocity, of course.)
For example: An unmodified Slasher with a standard Afterburner running has a Max Velocity of about 900 m/s. A standard Havoc Heavy Missile has an explosion velocity of 750 m/s. The Slasher can 'outrun' the explosion and take little or no damage from it.
If the person who fired the missile had TNP 4, the Slasher's effective velocity becomes (900 - 40%) m/s = 900 x 0.6 = 540 m/s. Well within the explosion velocity, so the Slasher can no longer escape the damage radius and thus takes a bigger hit.
From this, you can clearly see that both skills are intended for use against smaller ships, since missiles need no boost vs. equal-sized or larger ships. That is one of the main weaknesses of missile systems, and the two skills do indeed help to counter it.
http://eve.battleclinic.com/eve_online/item_database.php?id=i209 AOE Falloff is the one you want. Or alternatively, have a look at http://www.eve-online.com/guide/en/g27.asp (page 3) which should show you that it's 'about' missile explosion velocity, + 3km/sec where a missile stops doing damage. Your slasher analogy is incorrect - if it's doing 900m/sec, your unmodified heavy missile will be suffering about a 2% damage reduction. Of course, I feel that to be a moot point, given the number of times I've seen someone flying a slasher with an afterburner, vs. the number who use MWDs I agree, the skills do serve to counter the main weaknesses of missile systems. However with one only applying to half the launcher systems, and the other not having much of an impact, due to the disparity in ship velocities (either 'slow enough' or 'too fast') I wanted to make the case that they just weren't good enough at doing so. |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction |
Posted - 2007.05.04 09:18:00 - [ 6]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
I actually agree with James on pretty much all accounts. Even though torps affected by GMP might be a lil overpowered. What I would like to see is GMP and the rigs/implants affecting the Javelin versions of the 'unguided' missiles.
You may be right. As is, torps with 300 signature (assuming a 25% reduction for GMP 5) would be ... well on a par with cruise missiles without that bonus today. I think the Javelin torps demonstrated that low sig, good explosion velocity torps were very very good. That said, if you put GMP on there (so, they actually hit _all_ battleships for full damage), but at the same time looked at the explosion velocity again - drop the AOE falloff to = explosion velocity, so 250 (or more with TNP 5 of course), I think that would serve as a major balancing factor. Although, I'm still not convinced Ravens are overpowered these days - ok, so they're great PvE monsters, but ... well more missile precision I don't think'd make much difference there. It makes a difference in PvP, but ... well I'm thinking there's a reason you don't see many people PvPing in Ravens... (OK, so that's not entirely true. Sometimes people have ratting ravens, which are the only BS they have handy.) *shrug* actually, I'd probably be happy if they just increased the explosion radius of all the 'unguided' and then allowed GMP to apply. |
Kartissa Elentari |
Posted - 2007.05.05 03:36:00 - [ 7]
Edited by: Kartissa Elentari on 05/05/2007 04:12:17Whoops. There I go again applying real-world physics to a computer game. Maybe I should have studied programming instead.... I based my argument on a logical explanation of how the skills are explained in the game info. If it's wrong, it's not my fault. Originally by: Leandro Salazar
And it is not your TMP skill that allows you to kill those frigs, it is simply that higher class missiles still do a whole lot of damage against smaller class ships. TMP skill actually probaly has little to no impact on PvE anyway, it only becomes meaningful in PvP where many enemies are actually fast even AFTER they reached their orbit distance. In PvE, I can kill frigs with torps...
The base damage may be greater for larger missiles, but I noticed a significant difference between TNP 3 and TNP 4 in the speed at which identical frigates died to my missiles. Originally by: Leandro Salazar
And the exp velocity falloff determines the rate at which the damage from the missile is reduced with target speed higher than exp velocity. This is part of your simplistic explanation of a more complex process.
I know. I didn't want to confuse anyone with over-complicated physics. There are players who haven't studied it to the same level I have. A simple, understandable explanation is far better than accurate, incomprehensible technobabble. |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction |
Posted - 2007.05.12 11:14:00 - [ 8]
Originally by: Kartissa Elentari
Edited by: Kartissa Elentari on 05/05/2007 04:12:17
Whoops. There I go again applying real-world physics to a computer game. Maybe I should have studied programming instead....
I based my argument on a logical explanation of how the skills are explained in the game info. If it's wrong, it's not my fault.
Always a mistake :) Thankfully, CCP decided against real world physics of spaceflight. Unfortunately this also has the side-effect of idiosyncratic behaviour. Quote:
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
And it is not your TMP skill that allows you to kill those frigs, it is simply that higher class missiles still do a whole lot of damage against smaller class ships. TMP skill actually probaly has little to no impact on PvE anyway, it only becomes meaningful in PvP where many enemies are actually fast even AFTER they reached their orbit distance. In PvE, I can kill frigs with torps...
The base damage may be greater for larger missiles, but I noticed a significant difference between TNP 3 and TNP 4 in the speed at which identical frigates died to my missiles.
This surprises me somehow. If they were going less than 750m/sec then there _should_ have been no difference to damage from your heavy missiles. Quote:
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
And the exp velocity falloff determines the rate at which the damage from the missile is reduced with target speed higher than exp velocity. This is part of your simplistic explanation of a more complex process.
I know. I didn't want to confuse anyone with over-complicated physics. There are players who haven't studied it to the same level I have. A simple, understandable explanation is far better than accurate, incomprehensible technobabble.
Unfortunately, I think what we're looking at here, is fundamentally deep in the lost realms of technobabble. Oh well, I'll hold out hope that this happens 'some day'. |
Michael Caldar
DangerZone Inc. |
Posted - 2007.05.12 12:02:00 - [ 9]
I'm probably confused but the GMP and it's (or my understanding of it) application in Eve makes perfect sense: A heavy missile does not actually hit it's target, rather it explodes in the target's proximity. The damage transferred to target varies with the size of that explosion hence smaller targets affected in lesser way by it. If the explosion radius is bigger than that of a target signature - some of the damage is wasted (eg part of the EMP pulse missing the target altogether). GMP reduces the explosion radius (focusing it) allowing for more damage to be applied to the target's shield/armour/structure. Blunt knife vs a sharp one - same pressure but deeper cut. Size of the projectiles makes no difference - explosion radius does. Rockets have explosion radius of 20m - a Crow has a signature radius of 36m. Not sure if there are smaller ships but even an interceptor will get the full whack of a rocket blast. GMP will reduce the explosion radius even further but the inty is getting it all regardless. A cruise missile with an explosion radius of 300m will only transfer a fraction of it's potential damage to the same Crow. Train GMP and reduce it - on smaller targets you will hit harder. What's wrong with that?  Same for TNP - try hitting webbers when they MWD towards you - they pop like there's no tomorrow. Explosion velocity + their speed = more damage received. Different story altogether when they're orbiting you... If you don't see it that way - don't train the skill. But aren't you asking CCP to fix what's working exactly as advertised?  YMMV |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction |
Posted - 2007.05.12 14:48:00 - [ 10]
Rockets, it's somewhat acedemic, guided missile precision. About the only think it affects then is pods, and *shrug* who cares?
However I feel it's still very relevant for torps and heavy assault missiles. I don't follow why this skill shouldn't apply, apart from making it ... well, a less valuable skill.
With target navigation prediction, compare for me, if you would, on the 'player guide' on missiles, of standard missiles with TNP4 and standard missiles with TNP 5. Against a 3km/sec target (and lets face it, there's ships that go faster) the difference in damage reduction, as best I can tell, is 68% vs. 62%. The AOE falloff being the significant component.
Now, I'm of the opinion that a straight falloff of 1500 is ... well not entirely correct. I think it should vary based on skills, and what type of missile you're using. As is, the difference in light missiles is, IMO fairly negligable - it's a handy amount, in exactly the right limit condition, but... well my experience of fast ship combat is either they're going way too fast, or they're not and they die. |
Max Hardcase
Art of War
Cult of War |
Posted - 2007.05.12 19:30:00 - [ 11]
Edited by: Max Hardcase on 12/05/2007 19:29:13
The missile explosion radius and explosion velocity skills do not effect rockets, HAM's and torpedo's.
They are relatively dumb missiles.
Not really needed either, they have their uses.
|
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction |
Posted - 2007.10.06 23:20:00 - [ 12]
Originally by: Max Hardcase
Edited by: Max Hardcase on 12/05/2007 19:29:13
The missile explosion radius and explosion velocity skills do not effect rockets, HAM's and torpedo's.
They are relatively dumb missiles.
Not really needed either, they have their uses.
They do, but never the less, it remains my opinion that this skill _should_ affect them. I mean, can you imagine if motion prediction only affected railguns, and not blasters? Even if that necessitates increasing that base signature radius. |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
|
Posted - 2007.10.06 23:36:00 - [ 13]
TNP affects all missiles' explosion velocity - including torps, HAMs and rockets. |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction |
Posted - 2007.10.06 23:58:00 - [ 14]
Originally by: Gypsio III
TNP affects all missiles' explosion velocity - including torps, HAMs and rockets.
It does. But because of the way AOE falloff works, it doesn't actually make anything like enough difference. Either your target is not running a MWD, and is therefore taking full damage (at least, due to velocity). Or it is running a MWD, and is getting a damage reduction. The size of the damage reduction doesn't actually vary anywhere near enough - look at the difference in explosion velocity you get from torpedos - it's really ... just not even remotely signficant. The overwhelming factor is that OAE falloff, whether you have the skill at 5 or not. THe situation is even worse with the smaller missiles - with a light missile, I will either hit you for full damage, because you don't have a MWD lit, or I will be so far into that AOE falloff, the 1000m/sec difference the skill makes, won't be significant. |
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