| Author |
Topic |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction |
Posted - 2007.08.10 08:52:00 - [ 1]
At the moment, if you've had occasion to try, you'll be aware that you cannot, in any way, shape or form, lock beyond 250km. There's a hard cap on locking range.
Now, it used to be the case, that this maybe didn't matter. No one can do anything useful that far away anyway, so who cares.
Unfortunately, at the moment, there's a few ships that _can_ do things at >250km.
A Rokh, with 4x tracking computers IIs, 425mm railgun IIs, and battleship 5, can achieve at 285km optimal, with a 30km falloff. It may only be scratching paintwork, but it can scratch paintwork at 345km.
A Raven, with max skills, can lob cruise missiles 256km. If you add 3 missile range rigs, this goes up to 384km. (It does take 30s to hit that fa)
A Scorpion, with 3x ECM Optimal range rigs, will do 254km optimal, with 40km falloff on racial jammers.
A Rook, will do 228km optimal, and 40km falloff, with 2x ECM optimal rigs. (And so will a falcon for that matter)
You can also, if you push, get a 425mm railgun fitted to _any_ T1 battleship, to 210km optimal, and 34.5km falloff. Which ok, does require some T2 rigs. But you can in theory, be scratching paintwork at nearly 280km.
I don't think that a ship's range should be limited by this cap. If I can sensor boost enough, and get my range to that point, it seems... well, irritating that there should be an artificial cap, that prevents making use of that capability.
Of course, it seems that the ships most hit by this particular problem are also primarily Caldari. Which, being the race that seems to specialise in long range, probably isn't all that much of a surprise.
However, it is something I'd like to see changed.
There is of course, the other argument regarding how far is 'long range' supposed to be in EVE. I can see valid reasons why the current ranges are just too long (Not least, that our 'maximum' warp range is 100km). I'd probably be very keen to see all ranges dropped down a 'fair bit'. But that's a side issue to this particular problem - My most favourite ships are artificially restricted in their capabilities. |
Oedus Caro
Caldari
Cross Roads
|
Posted - 2007.08.10 08:59:00 - [ 2]
Signed. Give the man his range, I say! |
Disco Flint
The Flaming Sideburn's
CORPVS DELICTI |
Posted - 2007.08.10 09:12:00 - [ 3]
 Originally by: James Lyrus
*snip*
There is of course, the other argument regarding how far is 'long range' supposed to be in EVE. I can see valid reasons why the current ranges are just too long (Not least, that our 'maximum' warp range is 100km). I'd probably be very keen to see all ranges dropped down a 'fair bit'. But that's a side issue to this particular problem - My most favourite ships are artificially restricted in their capabilities.
Only if all speeds get lowered, too. Otherwise those pesky Gallente and Minmatar will be in our faces even faster. Besides that, /signed |
Artanixir
Infinite Improbability Inc
Mostly Harmless |
Posted - 2007.08.10 09:15:00 - [ 4]
Definately, i would understand if the cap was a bit more, but the fact you could be 100km further away with the rokh means it definately needs changing, if not removing completely :)
/signed |
Shadowsword
Epsilon Lyr
Tau Ceti Federation |
Posted - 2007.08.10 09:17:00 - [ 5]
If you lift that range limit, that means that Rohks, missile boats and every single dread, can hammer a pos or it's modules from outside their activation range.
That means, among other things, that the agressors could force the defensers to fight from outside the support pos guns can provide, nullifying the advantage they're supposed to have.
At long range, the Rokh can easily use more damaging ammos, compared to a megathron or Hyperion, which more than make up for the 25% damage bonus.
So, no, lifting the lock range limit would open a tremendous can of worms, and for what?
If you have too much optimal, you can either use more damaging ammos, and/or drop a few tracking modules and free some slots. Both are fine. |
Scorpyn |
Posted - 2007.08.10 09:35:00 - [ 6]
I don't think the grids are big enough to make this doable... |
Taipan Gedscho
Muzzletov Gewaltski Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.08.10 10:02:00 - [ 7]
theres only one way to solve this problem: NURF weapon ranges back to stone age (i said nurf on purpose a normal nerf just wont cut it here) to bring it in line with the lockrange cap. we need this balanced now ffs, get our job done CCP!  no really, i agree on the can of worm things, rather not touch it, if you dont have some sort worm eating animal nearby. wait a sec... hamsters eat worms, dont they? |
Ryan Scouse'UK
omen.
IDLE EMPIRE |
Posted - 2007.08.10 11:36:00 - [ 8]
Edited by: Ryan Scouse''UK on 10/08/2007 11:36:44 Originally by: Taipan Gedscho
theres only one way to solve this problem:
NURF weapon ranges back to stone age (i said nurf on purpose a normal nerf just wont cut it here) to bring it in line with the lockrange cap.
we need this balanced now ffs, get our job done CCP!
no really, i agree on the can of worm things, rather not touch it, if you dont have some sort worm eating animal nearby.
wait a sec... hamsters eat worms, dont they?
If hamsters did... There would be no Bugs in EVE! =) |
Dei
Amarr
Paladin Imperium
Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2007.08.10 13:18:00 - [ 9]
Isn't it capped at 250km because grids are 250km radius? So if the locking range was lifted, you would have to lock via the directional scanner? |
Rex Sacrorum
Gallente
S-44 |
Posted - 2007.08.10 13:25:00 - [ 10]
Edited by: Rex Sacrorum on 10/08/2007 15:00:09 Originally by: Shadowsword
At long range, the Rokh can easily use more damaging ammos, compared to a megathron or Hyperion, which more than make up for the 25% damage bonus.
This is where you are wrong. Unless everyone agrees not to use Spike. A small (slightly simplified) comparison: Let us assume that we have a Rokh and a Hyperion setup with the same T2 railguns and weapon upgrades and that their pilots have exactly the same skills (including thier respective BS lvl5). If we neglect the ship bonuses the ships would than have exactly the same damage and range. Let us (for easy calculations) assume that this is 500 dps at an optimal of 200 km using Spike L. This puts the Rokh at 500 dps at an optimal of 300 km, and the Hyperion gets 625 dps at an optimal of 200 km. Now let us have a look at what 'more damaging ammos' we can choose for the Rokh to make it as good a sniper as the Hyperion. Spike L does 16 thermal and 16 kinetic, 32 damage per charge in total. For ease of comparison I suggest we that we assume that our targets are as vulnerable to thermal as they are to kinetic so that we can concentrate on comparing total damage per charge. Looking at standard T1 charges we have to go to Lead L to find something that does 32 damage per charge. But due to the low range of Lead L it would put the Rokh at 500 dps at an optimal of 167 km. Looking at Caldari Navy (CN) charges we find Iridium which does 32.2 damage per charge with a range modifier of 1.2. CN Iridium L gives our Rokh a dps of 503.125 with an optimal of 200 km. Looking at Dread Gurista (DG) charges we find that Iridium does 33.6 damage per charge which puts the Rokh at 525 dps with an optimal of 200km. If we want to get more dps from the Rokh than from the Hyperion we have to load our railguns with DG Thorium which does 43.2 damage per charge or in our example 675 dps but than our optimal is cut down to 146 km. Thus there is no way to change ammo on a Rokh to get more damage than from a Hyperion. Obviously the Rokh has some advantages when it comes to low skills and only T1 ammo but in my mind that is beside the point. The range cap is for the Rokh what a "1000 dps per ship"-cap would be for the gallente battleships. Not many other (non-capital) ships can do that kind of damage. Using the same arguments the gallente BS could change ammo to something with more range while not loosing any damage if there was such a cap.
[Irony]In all fairness I think ther could be such a cap. Capitals excepted.[\Irony]
Edit: If there are any flaws in my calculations feel free to point them out. |
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
M. Corp |
Posted - 2007.08.10 13:34:00 - [ 11]
/signed. Bring lock range cap to 300 km |
Ather Ialeas
Amarr
the united
Negative Ten. |
Posted - 2007.08.10 13:57:00 - [ 12]
This would be another Amarr nerf btw. |
Sirius Problem
Darkness Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.08.10 14:38:00 - [ 13]
I would rather see options added to the "Orbit" command to allow 150km, 200km, and 250km orbits. As well, "Warp To" should allow the same ranges above the current maximum of 100km |
Mona X
Caldari
Polish Task Forces
C0VEN |
Posted - 2007.08.10 14:51:00 - [ 14]
Originally by: Sirius Problem
I would rather see options added to the "Orbit" command to allow 150km, 200km, and 250km orbits.
Try right mouse button on "orbit" button. |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction |
Posted - 2007.08.10 14:53:00 - [ 15]
On the subject of grids, I'm absolutely certain I've seen ships 500km away on the same grid. I'm also fairly sure I've seen ships go 20km from me, and 'disappear' off grid. I don't see that as a huge issue - if I can't see it, they can't see me, so ... well, that's a reasonable stalemate IMO. Originally by: Shadowsword
If you lift that range limit, that means that Rohks, missile boats and every single dread, can hammer a pos or it's modules from outside their activation range.
That means, among other things, that the agressors could force the defensers to fight from outside the support pos guns can provide, nullifying the advantage they're supposed to have.
At long range, the Rokh can easily use more damaging ammos, compared to a megathron or Hyperion, which more than make up for the 25% damage bonus.
So, no, lifting the lock range limit would open a tremendous can of worms, and for what?
If you have too much optimal, you can either use more damaging ammos, and/or drop a few tracking modules and free some slots. Both are fine.
I disagree. The range cap makes use of spike almost worthless on a Rokh. You have an option to lose a tracking computer I suppose, but what you really want in a fleet, is optimal, dps and 'enough' time to get into warp. That's it. How about, we cap railguns at 75dps each. I think that might be a reasonable alternative, I mean, the Rokh can do about that much with anti-matter, so clearly everyone else should be limited too. Seriously ... yes, the Rokh can use more damaging ammos at longer ranges. The opinion I've heard expressed is it remains outclassed by Gallente or Caldari ships for fleet work, simply because a long optimal, isn't a lot of use when you're trying to get warpins for ane entire fleet. But for long range, everyone's using spike, spike or spike. You have to drop _several_ ammo sizes, to find a charge that does the same damage (admittedly this has become marginally better with faction ammo). Artificially capping these ranges is having an impact on a selection of Caldari ships. I've not heard any recent complaints about their devastating impact in PvP. |
KD.Fluffy
Caldari
Heavy Influence
Aggression. |
Posted - 2007.08.10 14:53:00 - [ 16]
Edited by: KD.Fluffy on 10/08/2007 14:54:05 Quote:
The range cap is for the Rokh what a "1000 dps per ship"-cap would be for the gallente battleships. Not many other (non-capital) ships can do that kind of damage. Using the same arguments the gallente BS could change ammo to something with more range while not loosing any damage if there was such a cap.
[Irony]In all fairness I think ther could be such a cap. Capitals excepted.[\Irony]
Yes, the cap SEVERLY hurts the rokh... It can achieve tremendous range to only have its lock range nerfed. Cap out the gallente battleships dps at 1000, and that is an excellent comparison. Quote:
If you lift that range limit, that means that Rohks, missile boats and every single dread, can hammer a pos or it's modules from outside their activation range.
Why not increase activation range? You do realize a dreads dps at over 250km would be horrendous? It would take far to long to take a pos down. |
Sirius Problem
Darkness Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.08.10 18:32:00 - [ 17]
Edited by: Sirius Problem on 10/08/2007 18:33:01 Originally by: Mona X
Originally by: Sirius Problem
I would rather see options added to the "Orbit" command to allow 150km, 200km, and 250km orbits.
Try right mouse button on "orbit" button.
Yes, one can use this option to manually enter a default orbit distance of up to 1,000km. However, any time you are already 150km or greater from your target, you lose the ability to use the "Orbit" button on the overview, as you are now classified as "within warp distance". The orbit button will be grayed out. So, in order to orbit something at more than 150km, you must first be less than 150km from your target, then use the "Orbit" button with a default you have entered (i.e. 250km). Technically workable, but far from ideal. |
Col Angus |
Posted - 2007.08.10 18:57:00 - [ 18]
If the lock range limit was to be removed, the ships in question would end up getting nerfed. Just be happy with the way it is. |
Zalathar
Minmatar
Stellar Research Incorporated
DEFI4NT |
Posted - 2007.08.10 18:58:00 - [ 19]
Originally by: James Lyrus
On the subject of grids, I'm absolutely certain I've seen ships 500km away on the same grid.
I'm also fairly sure I've seen ships go 20km from me, and 'disappear' off grid.
I don't see that as a huge issue - if I can't see it, they can't see me, so ... well, that's a reasonable stalemate IMO.
when you saw the the ships at 500km, they were at the other side of a 250km shpere (250 radius x 2 = 500 diameter), and when they dissapeared at 2km, you were just at the edge of a grid, ad they went a bit further than you, and went off the grid. |
ReePeR McAllem
The Carebear Stare |
Posted - 2007.08.10 20:11:00 - [ 20]
/signed |
Wayward Hooligan
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion |
Posted - 2007.08.10 20:22:00 - [ 21]
Edited by: Wayward Hooligan on 10/08/2007 20:22:27
It's funny. I was thinking about this exact same problem this morning.
I believe the problem is the t2 ammos.
If only t1 ammo existed a sniping Hype would have to load Iron L. Not going to run numbers on math for range and dps.
A Rohk could choose to fight at the same range and load a higher base damage ammo thus giving it a damage bonus.
The problem is that longe range t2 ammo is both longer range and higher damage than t1 long range ammo.
I don't like any of the t2 ammo to begin with so my proposed solution would be simply:
Remove all t2 ammo.
Increase specialization damage bonus to 3% per skill level from 2%.
At spec lvl 5 t2 guns would have a 15% damage bonus -vs- the 10% now.
This means t2 weapons are still much better than best named t1 and it would indirectly buff any ship with a range bonus.
I imagine there are a lot of people that like t2 ammo though. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2007.08.10 22:17:00 - [ 22]
Originally by: Shadowsword
If you lift that range limit, that means that Rohks, missile boats and every single dread, can hammer a pos or it's modules from outside their activation range.
So, you can also boost the activation range of POS weapons to the same "maxcap" too, and you won't have a problem. I know of several POS weapons that can easily hit to 300km or even more if the cap would be removed/extended there too. |
Rex Sacrorum
Gallente
S-44 |
Posted - 2007.08.10 23:17:00 - [ 23]
Originally by: Col Angus
If the lock range limit was to be removed, the ships in question would end up getting nerfed. Just be happy with the way it is.
I really have a hard time seeing this, but I wouldn't have any problem with a slight nerf to the mentioned ships if nessecary. I don't like artificial boundaries that get in my way when I try to improve my ships setup. |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction |
Posted - 2007.08.10 23:47:00 - [ 24]
Originally by: Zalathar
Originally by: James Lyrus
On the subject of grids, I'm absolutely certain I've seen ships 500km away on the same grid.
I'm also fairly sure I've seen ships go 20km from me, and 'disappear' off grid.
I don't see that as a huge issue - if I can't see it, they can't see me, so ... well, that's a reasonable stalemate IMO.
when you saw the the ships at 500km, they were at the other side of a 250km shpere (250 radius x 2 = 500 diameter), and when they dissapeared at 2km, you were just at the edge of a grid, ad they went a bit further than you, and went off the grid.
Entirely possible. But ... well, if I can see 'em that far, why is there any need to prevent me locking/firing at them? OK, I appreciate it won't _always_ work - sometimes being that far away will mean being off grid. But... well, so what? I can't see them, they can't see me. If I can see them on the other side of that grid, (and I think it's actually a cube, rather than a sphere) then ... well, why _shouldn't_ I in theory be able to lob some cruise missiles that way. OK, so they'll probably be gone by the time the missiles get there, but it'll stop them hanging around... |
Slaptastic |
Posted - 2007.08.11 05:15:00 - [ 25]
The problem with unlocking the cap range has nothing to do with grids. The grid itself is all connected by 250km blocks, as long as you have a target locked before you get to 250+km then you can keep the lock. (But locking after 250km is of course impossible because of the block switch.)
The problem lies with fighting styles. CCP stated that 250+km fights are what they are staying away from. Example needed? -
Pretend that Rohks are the only ship that can hit out from 300km. Fleet battles have now become a Rohk shootout. ECM ships become useless along with other battleships.
So for arguments sake, if they unlocked the shooting range, you would A: Never see where you got shot from and B: Never see any other ships being used as snipers..
Just because a few Rohk pilots want to snipe at a ridiculously safe distance, doesn't mean it will balance gamepaly. |
Rafein |
Posted - 2007.08.11 06:29:00 - [ 26]
Eh, I dunno. I like the cap on range.
Most ships cannot reach it. Ships like the Rokh, that can reach it, still have a bonus, allowing them to use higher damage ammos at longer ranges, so they are still getting their bonus.
So I think it's fine. |
Rex Sacrorum
Gallente
S-44 |
Posted - 2007.08.11 11:50:00 - [ 27]
Originally by: Slaptastic
The problem with unlocking the cap range has nothing to do with grids. The grid itself is all connected by 250km blocks, as long as you have a target locked before you get to 250+km then you can keep the lock. (But locking after 250km is of course impossible because of the block switch.)
The problem lies with fighting styles. CCP stated that 250+km fights are what they are staying away from. Example needed? -
Pretend that Rohks are the only ship that can hit out from 300km. Fleet battles have now become a Rohk shootout. ECM ships become useless along with other battleships.
So for arguments sake, if they unlocked the shooting range, you would A: Never see where you got shot from and B: Never see any other ships being used as snipers..
Just because a few Rohk pilots want to snipe at a ridiculously safe distance, doesn't mean it will balance gamepaly.
The stupid thing (IMO) is that the Rokh, which in its description states "A fleet vessel if ever there was one", is such a bad sniper. It's very good until you get enough skillpoints to actually make use of it (T2 Railguns), I fully agree on that, but after you have you T2 Railguns it becomes one of the worst snipers, easily outclassed by Gallentes closerange ships. If CCP really doesn't want us fighting over 250+km they should get rid of the Rokhs range bonus, since we cannot use it anyway. |
Sapphrine
Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude
Ushra'Khan |
Posted - 2007.08.11 13:32:00 - [ 28]
Originally by: Slaptastic
Pretend that Rohks are the only ship that can hit out from 300km. Fleet battles have now become a Rohk shootout. ECM ships become useless along with other battleships.
So for arguments sake, if they unlocked the shooting range, you would A: Never see where you got shot from and B: Never see any other ships being used as snipers..
Just because a few Rohk pilots want to snipe at a ridiculously safe distance, doesn't mean it will balance gamepaly.
I disagree. The deal would be you sacrifice higher damage at close range for greater distance from enemy. This is exactly the same as we work with now. Also, as shown, ECM boats can be fitted to reach out to some quite amazing distances, well past the 250km cap in place. A fleet that only fielded a group of rokhs as their snipers would get out damaged every time at closer than 250km as already shown. Your argument that you'd never see where you got shot from appears to have come from thin air as you've given it no basis. Your argument for only Rokh's is like saying because you can get 1000dps at close range people will only fit for that. There's a trade off of distance from target vs damage caused in eve. If you're near by, you can cause greater dps. Being at range is its own advantage and comes at the trade off in dps achievable. The artificial cap causes a limitation on those that choose range and in the rokh we now have a case where it gimps the ship in such a way that it is simply less effective than other snipers. I would request that either the rokh's bonuses are adjusted so that their effectiveness is not wasted by the artificial range cap or I would like to see the range cap removed. |
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
Wildly Inappropriate. |
Posted - 2007.08.11 15:59:00 - [ 29]
I'd rather not worry about people firing off grid at me. |
Rex Sacrorum
Gallente
S-44 |
Posted - 2007.08.11 17:10:00 - [ 30]
Edited by: Rex Sacrorum on 11/08/2007 17:10:33 Originally by: Sapphrine
I would request that either the rokh's bonuses are adjusted so that their effectiveness is not wasted by the artificial range cap or I would like to see the range cap removed.
I agree. |
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