Posted - 2009.03.09 00:43:00 - [871]

 

Hm. Mainly interested in ship probing here, not so much exploration. Just had some great "fun" with a 100% hit, warp - nothing. Rescan, 100% hit, warp - nothing. Can we at least get the deviation on 100% results out? Deviation on intermediate results is annoying enough :-]

Posted - 2009.03.09 03:46:00 - [873]

 

I've just completed a complete scan of a W-Space system, this is what I've found. I've entered the system through a WH in HighSec, and it appears it was one of the easier ones. I wanted to look for Radar/Magnetometric/Combat sites to see how and if they were soloable and what ship would be suited for the job. For this reason I scanned in my combat ship (Hyperion in this case), which didn't give me a problem finding the signatures, but I'm well aware that a cov ops would've been faster (most likely significantly).
The system had 16 signatures, which is on the low end for w-space systems. I've scanned them all down in about 3 hours. I've found 2 WHs (relatively early on), one leading out to highsec (different region) and one to another w-system. There was also one ladar site.
EVERY other site was a gravimetric site. All of them! I understand that you need to put alot of those in there to compensate for the missing static belts. The real problem is that there is NO way to know in advance that the type of signature I'm looking for isn't even there. Or let's say I'm looking for a ladar site, then I don't want to spend potentially 3 hours scanning down everything in case I happen to pick that signature last, since I have no way of distinguishing between signature types until I hit 25% strength (which with this setup was about 30 seconds before actually finding it). There need to be either some sort of filter for this or at least a mostly even distribution of signature types.

About scan time and effort: The 3 hours for 16 sigs comes out to about 10 minutes per site and most of that time was spent mentally assigning low signal strength (high deviation) dots in system-wide scans to bookmarks and figuring out which one I hadn't scanned yet. The actual scan time was maybe about 5 minutes, which is pretty decent for a combat vessel.

For k-space this system works fine in the current sisi implementation since there rarely are more than 3 sites in a system, just scanning them to 25% takes about 5 minutes since you don't have to handle a forest of red dots on the map. There's no problem there.
Am I right in guessing that the density and amount of the signatures in w-space was decided way after the revamp of the scanning system? This would explain the poor fitting of one concept to the other.

Please FOR THE LOVE OF GOD give us a way to tell the scanner what we are looking for or this is never gonna be worth the time in w-space.

One more thing, concerning usability: Could there be a way to set the range of multiple probes simultanously? Like 'Set active probes ranges to:' or just allow a right-click menu for a selection in the "Probes in space" list of the scanner.

Posted - 2009.03.09 04:14:00 - [875]

 

Edited by: Azeria L''Mante on 09/03/2009 04:15:46
Edited by: Azeria L''Mante on 09/03/2009 04:14:51

Originally by: Creat Posudol

---

I've just completed a complete scan of a W-Space system, this is what I've found. I've entered the system through a WH in HighSec, and it appears it was one of the easier ones. I wanted to look for Radar/Magnetometric/Combat sites to see how and if they were soloable and what ship would be suited for the job. For this reason I scanned in my combat ship (Hyperion in this case), which didn't give me a problem finding the signatures, but I'm well aware that a cov ops would've been faster (most likely significantly).
The system had 16 signatures, which is on the low end for w-space systems. I've scanned them all down in about 3 hours. I've found 2 WHs (relatively early on), one leading out to highsec (different region) and one to another w-system. There was also one ladar site.
EVERY other site was a gravimetric site. All of them! I understand that you need to put alot of those in there to compensate for the missing static belts. The real problem is that there is NO way to know in advance that the type of signature I'm looking for isn't even there. Or let's say I'm looking for a ladar site, then I don't want to spend potentially 3 hours scanning down everything in case I happen to pick that signature last, since I have no way of distinguishing between signature types until I hit 25% strength (which with this setup was about 30 seconds before actually finding it). There need to be either some sort of filter for this or at least a mostly even distribution of signature types.

About scan time and effort: The 3 hours for 16 sigs comes out to about 10 minutes per site and most of that time was spent mentally assigning low signal strength (high deviation) dots in system-wide scans to bookmarks and figuring out which one I hadn't scanned yet. The actual scan time was maybe about 5 minutes, which is pretty decent for a combat vessel.

For k-space this system works fine in the current sisi implementation since there rarely are more than 3 sites in a system, just scanning them to 25% takes about 5 minutes since you don't have to handle a forest of red dots on the map. There's no problem there.
Am I right in guessing that the density and amount of the signatures in w-space was decided way after the revamp of the scanning system? This would explain the poor fitting of one concept to the other.

Please FOR THE LOVE OF GOD give us a way to tell the scanner what we are looking for or this is never gonna be worth the time in w-space.

One more thing, concerning usability: Could there be a way to set the range of multiple probes simultanously? Like 'Set active probes ranges to:' or just allow a right-click menu for a selection in the "Probes in space" list of the scanner.

---

I was just about to propose this same thing, we really need a means to know what is in the system or at least how to tell the scanner to only search for "x" cosmic sig not ALL of them as it is now, such as those multispectral probes that would tell us what sites were in a system. Also we need a means to mark what sites we discover so that they are NOT researchable by a pilot in the same session. If two sites are close to each other you find one and then try to find the other but end up getting hits on the first site. This is very annoying so please add some means to document sites and make them non-searchable if you have already found them.

Thanks.

Posted - 2009.03.09 08:03:00 - [877]

 

Finding new hits, and ignoring old finds is doable. If you drop a probe and get 8 hits, click in the result window on every hit. If the red sphere touches a bookmark, then you can ignore it (the bm will be on the edge of the sphere).

A few posts up someone mentioned that Greyscale said that WH's will be the only unknowns. This is true, but ONLY if you already are over 25% ! You won't see any signal types until you're actually closing in on one !

BtW, found the first magneto in W-space, 12 cans, and tons of cruisers / frigates, which 3 RR battleships could NOT complete due to the switching drone aggro (3 RR domi's). After 15 minutes we had lost 80% of our DPS :)
It's ton of fun though to fight the sleepers. It's NOT fun finding the WH collapsed, and fruitelessly spending 2 hours trying to find a new WH. Found tons of gravi sites, ladar sites etc, but no WH. It's probably cluster-f*cked in the centre where I have 12 results close to each other.

As said : we need to be able to set filter to WH only !

Posted - 2009.03.09 09:32:00 - [879]

 

Originally by: Neddy Fox

---

Finding new hits, and ignoring old finds is doable. If you drop a probe and get 8 hits, click in the result window on every hit. If the red sphere touches a bookmark, then you can ignore it (the bm will be on the edge of the sphere).

A few posts up someone mentioned that Greyscale said that WH's will be the only unknowns. This is true, but ONLY if you already are over 25% ! You won't see any signal types until you're actually closing in on one !

BtW, found the first magneto in W-space, 12 cans, and tons of cruisers / frigates, which 3 RR battleships could NOT complete due to the switching drone aggro (3 RR domi's). After 15 minutes we had lost 80% of our DPS :)
It's ton of fun though to fight the sleepers. It's NOT fun finding the WH collapsed, and fruitelessly spending 2 hours trying to find a new WH. Found tons of gravi sites, ladar sites etc, but no WH. It's probably cluster-f*cked in the centre where I have 12 results close to each other.

As said : we need to be able to set filter to WH only !

---

Argh! As much as I appreciate that you'd like to jump back and forth between this new dangerous unknown universe with an absolute minimum of trouble, I think that being able to filter out exactly what you want (i.e. wormhole out) in a single 10 sec scan would defeat the very concept of "dangerous unknown space".

Part of the concept of wormholes are that they are not dependable transportation and it includes the idea that you may get bloody stuck in there ending up taking the clone express back. If getting in and out of them was an absolute doodle they might as well just add proper stargates to them.

Posted - 2009.03.09 10:09:00 - [881]

 

WH spawns seems a little low on sisi, if we are getting 40% new systems at the least we should be able to find them in 2/5 systems. Scanned 10 systems today and gave up after no wh (and yes i scanned every result i got)

And will wh spawn throughout the day, or will those of us who play 4-6hrs before dt be fubared b/c all of them spawn after dt?

Posted - 2009.03.09 11:07:00 - [883]

 

Edited by: DeepBlue on 09/03/2009 11:07:35

Originally by: Karim alRashid

---

The significance of scan strength skills and equipment is not big enough. I can find 99% of the sites with an unbonused ship and a character with level 2-3 in exploration skills.

Probing in w-space is frustrating, because one is unable to focus on the sites he/she is actually interested in.

Hence:

• Significantly reduce the signature strength of all the sites


• Change the Astrometric Triangulation (old Signal Acquisition) skill to 15% per level.


• Make signature type (grav, mag, etc) show up at scan results of lower strength, e.g. 10%.


• Implement filtering on signature types (when known).

And don't dumb it down further.

---

thats exaxtily what i said here, skills are no longer really needed... having good skills just gives you a little advantage on how fast you find it, but its not worth training them anymore or even using implants.

and CCP YOU KILLED PVP PROBING.

Posted - 2009.03.09 11:49:00 - [885]

 

Edited by: Nyota Sol on 09/03/2009 11:50:03



CCP Grey & Others:

1. we absolutely need some means to archive/see history of sites for w-space to be remotely compelling. only the most dedicated folks with astro 5 have any business scanning down 15+ sites in w-space.

2. we absolutely need a keybind option for adding bookmarks. now is the time.

3. when you have multiple probes near a target and they only produce split red spheres, consider adding a new indicator... something that represents a messed up signal when probes are too close.

Posted - 2009.03.09 11:57:00 - [887]

 

as compensation low sec has 1.1m bs spawns meaning replacing ships will be quicker and therefore even if u loose a ship its replaceable.

Mining sites scale em back to a max amount spawned at once but ..... as soon as one despawns simply respawn another quickly rather than a few hours

Posted - 2009.03.09 12:25:00 - [889]

 

Originally by: Tanhar

---

Originally by: Arkady Sadik

---

Just had some great "fun" with a 100% hit, warp - nothing. Rescan, 100% hit, warp - nothing. Can we at least get the deviation on 100% results out? Deviation on intermediate results is annoying enough :-]

---

Concur this. 100% warpable hits still deviate, in my case by a few thousand kilometers. There is no way around apart rescan, warp to just another location, check, repeat. I finally hit the site at 10th or so attempt, but giving random nature it may as well been 100th. Tweaking probes further around will not help, as you have no further indication of progress - hey, you already have that 100% green dot !
Outright stupid.

---

According to Greyscale, this is a bug and is going to be fixed:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1016970&page=2#57

\o/

Posted - 2009.03.09 12:54:00 - [891]

 

While it would be nice to be able to filter results for WH only, I've found that it's not all that hard to scan down a WH in W-space. I was averaging about 5 minutes starting from the time I entered a system with the latest build last night. Some tips:

1)Don't scan the whole system at once. Scan at each planet starting @ 8au.

2)Only use one probe for the initial scanning and move it around and narrow down the scan radius to get maximum signal before deploying others. This stops you from getting multiple hits for single sites.

3)If you are searching for wormholes, ignore everything except unknowns. If you see an unknown in w-space it is always a WH.

Posted - 2009.03.09 13:32:00 - [893]

 

Originally by: Lyvanna Kitaen

---

While it would be nice to be able to filter results for WH only, I've found that it's not all that hard to scan down a WH in W-space. I was averaging about 5 minutes starting from the time I entered a system with the latest build last night. Some tips:

1)Don't scan the whole system at once. Scan at each planet starting @ 8au.

2)Only use one probe for the initial scanning and move it around and narrow down the scan radius to get maximum signal before deploying others. This stops you from getting multiple hits for single sites.

3)If you are searching for wormholes, ignore everything except unknowns. If you see an unknown in w-space it is always a WH.

---

1. Doing that already, and yes, it's 8 AU AFAIK now.

2. After doing all planets, and pinning down every sig, there was no WH, and only the centre (sun) left. 20 hits, which one should I close in to?

3. Doesn't say unknown until you're actually closing in on one, see 2)

Posted - 2009.03.09 13:45:00 - [895]

 

Originally by: Lyvanna Kitaen

---

While it would be nice to be able to filter results for WH only, I've found that it's not all that hard to scan down a WH in W-space. I was averaging about 5 minutes starting from the time I entered a system with the latest build last night. Some tips:

1)Don't scan the whole system at once. Scan at each planet starting @ 8au.

2)Only use one probe for the initial scanning and move it around and narrow down the scan radius to get maximum signal before deploying others. This stops you from getting multiple hits for single sites.

3)If you are searching for wormholes, ignore everything except unknowns. If you see an unknown in w-space it is always a WH.

---

Unfortunately, you can do the same thing in 10 lowsec systems over the coarse of a couple days and get nothing but drones and grav sites. The majority ov eve players are casual (70% are in empire no?) and of the ones in 0.0, a good portion of them also cant afford 5 hours a day for scanning and even if they could, why would they do it over something they enjoy?

It takes me on average 6-7 min to tell the type of site im probing, times by 15 in system that's well over two hours.

when the last probe system came in, we got given the ability to tell what types of sites were in a system because someone recognized people simply wasted their time searching for stuff they weren't looking for (and would eventually not bother). Today, it seems someone decided that person was wrong, that knowing if whats were actually searching for is in system and being able to search for it specifically (be it through specific probes or a simple scan filter) is wrong.

For well over a year we have had probes who's sole purpose it to allow the user to search for a specific site, now that there's only 1 probe a scanner filter would be logical but hasn't happened. If i find 20 sigs in a lowsec system i don't know that 20 of them were grav/rada/ladar until i waste 3 hours of my time and need to log.

People were ment to get lost in wh space (good thing, and fun) but people arn't getting lost, they're getting stuck not because of the systems, but because the most basic scanning function they always had is gone causing them to waste so many hours. If we can't have grav/radar/ladar/mag specific probe back then the need that functionality inside the scanner filter.

On tranquillity, a skilled pilot can get a sig in about 4 min, on singularity the same pilot can do it in about 5, except here he spends his time probing for what is almost certainly not the type of sig he wants. Sound like a step backwards in design toy you?

Ccp initially said the new scanner/systems was ment to mean that wormhole space would be easy to access for everyone, this is far from the case simply because the current build/design is lacking a basic feature we have had for 2 years. Please, consider fixing this. Pity scanning wont be completely ready in the 12 hours to patching, it's (lack of types aside) an improvement.

Posted - 2009.03.09 13:51:00 - [897]

 

On a related note.

Why, may i ask, does the sisters scan probes give a 10% increase in scan strength, but the scan probe launcher only give a 5% increase in scan strength?

Tranquillity, the probes give roughly a 15% time decrease while the launcher a 25% time decrease. Considering there's almost zero benefit in flying a cov ops now (pvp r.i.p), why have the bonuses been switched, making probes more preferable than the launcher?

Posted - 2009.03.09 14:05:00 - [899]

 

Originally by: achoura

---

Originally by: Lyvanna Kitaen

---

While it would be nice to be able to filter results for WH only, I've found that it's not all that hard to scan down a WH in W-space. I was averaging about 5 minutes starting from the time I entered a system with the latest build last night. Some tips:

1)Don't scan the whole system at once. Scan at each planet starting @ 8au.

2)Only use one probe for the initial scanning and move it around and narrow down the scan radius to get maximum signal before deploying others. This stops you from getting multiple hits for single sites.

3)If you are searching for wormholes, ignore everything except unknowns. If you see an unknown in w-space it is always a WH.

---

Unfortunately, you can do the same thing in 10 lowsec systems over the coarse of a couple days and get nothing but drones and grav sites. The majority ov eve players are casual (70% are in empire no?) and of the ones in 0.0, a good portion of them also cant afford 5 hours a day for scanning and even if they could, why would they do it over something they enjoy?

It takes me on average 6-7 min to tell the type of site im probing, times by 15 in system that's well over two hours.

when the last probe system came in, we got given the ability to tell what types of sites were in a system because someone recognized people simply wasted their time searching for stuff they weren't looking for (and would eventually not bother). Today, it seems someone decided that person was wrong, that knowing if whats were actually searching for is in system and being able to search for it specifically (be it through specific probes or a simple scan filter) is wrong.

For well over a year we have had probes who's sole purpose it to allow the user to search for a specific site, now that there's only 1 probe a scanner filter would be logical but hasn't happened. If i find 20 sigs in a lowsec system i don't know that 20 of them were grav/rada/ladar until i waste 3 hours of my time and need to log.

People were ment to get lost in wh space (good thing, and fun) but people arn't getting lost, they're getting stuck not because of the systems, but because the most basic scanning function they always had is gone causing them to waste so many hours. If we can't have grav/radar/ladar/mag specific probe back then the need that functionality inside the scanner filter.

On tranquillity, a skilled pilot can get a sig in about 4 min, on singularity the same pilot can do it in about 5, except here he spends his time probing for what is almost certainly not the type of sig he wants. Sound like a step backwards in design toy you?

Ccp initially said the new scanner/systems was ment to mean that wormhole space would be easy to access for everyone, this is far from the case simply because the current build/design is lacking a basic feature we have had for 2 years. Please, consider fixing this. Pity scanning wont be completely ready in the 12 hours to patching, it's (lack of types aside) an improvement.

---

My character has pretty high skills (astrometrics V, covert ops V, other scan skills @IV) along with implants and a Sister's launcher. With these skills, I've found that I can often ID the majority of sites at a location with one scan. Typically, if I put a probe in the center of the system @8au, I might get 10 hits, 7 of which have signal strength above 25%. So I don't have to track down each site individually, I can eliminate a lot of them with a single scan. Being able to use deep space probes helps a lot.

I haven't tried scanning with a lower skilled character to be able to tell how much difference it makes. All I know is, with my character, it's not taking me anywhere near 3 hours to find a WH in w-space. I've invested a lot of time and isk in getting my scanning skills up, so maybe this is the payoff?