Posted - 2009.03.18 04:00:00 - [2]

 

Assualt frigs are probably the best solo pvp ship for beginners as long as you have the isk and skills to fly one. Jaguars are definitly one of the best Assualt frigs around. Get in close, dodge tracking, and slowly bleed your targets out. Don't be afraid to take on ships larger than yourself. Your real worry are T2 and well fitted T1 cruisers. AF's really don't compare to BC's, its a completely different mindset.

Posted - 2009.03.18 08:17:00 - [4]

 

Q: Are assault frigates viable solo and small group pvp?
A(short): Yes
A(long): Hell, yes!

If you are just starting out don't go down the T2 ship route just yet. Train for a Rifter and get T2 guns and frigate skill and fly around in it while skilling further up to get a Rupture Cruiser.
Now you use the Rupture while skilling up for the T2 frigate hulls, this way you have a bigger wallet and most of the important support skills trained by the time you board the expensive non-insurable hulls.

Originally by: Grista

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The best solo pvp ship for beginners is the Rifter. The second best is the Punisher.

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All the tier3 frigates are powerhouses in their own right, Rifter main advantage is 3rd midslot for web but it only has half the tank and less damage than a Punisher ..
Merlin, Kestrel, Incursus and Tristan will mess you up hard if you don't know what you are doing .. Frigates are probably the most balanced ship class there is.

Originally by: Grista

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Assault frigates are just about the most completely worthless ship class in EVE, with the rare exception of being able to speed tank certain complexes.

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You sure you are playing Eve Online and not some other game?
AF's have near cruiser level damage, massive speed potential, cruiser level tank (when factoring in signature) and are nimble enough to get the hell out when excrement enters the ventilation system ..
Price of the ships is the only downside .. get to love them or learn to fear them is all there is to say.

Posted - 2009.03.18 10:21:00 - [6]

 

Edited by: General Coochie on 18/03/2009 10:22:27

Originally by: Louis deGuerre

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the incursus can't really compete with other races T1 frigates.

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I beg to differ, it got the most dps of the t1 frigs and that is very important. It can fit the same tank as a rifter, more dps, it has less speed and gun range though. A very fair trade off considering what the two ships should be specialized in according to their race. Rifter has to little CPU to fully utilize its slots to have a big advantage over the incursus. If you still have doubts watch my video ;) What incursus really lack is a high utility slot.

To answer OP, yeah AFs are good. While they can take out inties, frigs and cruisers/BCs not setup with a good PvP fit. EvE PvP is often consensual these days, so inties wont engage you neither would frigs. And cruisers and BCs would own you. EvE PvP is about making the opponent think he can kill you when he in reality can't for whatever reason. Benefit of frigs, AFs, inties is that they make excellent gang ships. A gang of frigs or AFs is very deadly.

Posted - 2009.03.18 12:06:00 - [8]

 

Assault frigs are good for solo pvp and (small) gang warfare. There are however a few things you have te keep in mind.

1. They can't tank sentry guns at all, so use in low sec is limited unless you have a war dec (Faction war!) going or are shooting blinky reds. In 0.0 they are definitely viable for roaming gangs.

2. Only with T2 guns will they really start bringing the hurt, don't fly them until you can give them T2 guns and mostly T2 fitting. This is easily achieved and not a big hurdle though. It does help tremendously in survivability.

3. The prerequisites for flying one are must have skills and the skill itself is needed to fly HAC's. Training them is never a waste of time for anyone wanting to pvp.

4. Practice in a T1 frigates before you decide to spend your isk on assault frigs.

Posted - 2009.03.18 12:59:00 - [10]

 

Basically what most people have said in here already.
I'm in a similar boat to you, although i'm 6 months down the same line your heading down.

Saying that i'm 'just' about to be able to get into AFs, i have one more prerequisite to learn before em. The reason for this is i have trained up all (well, most) the needed support skills to a decently high level before i actually am able to fly them, a much better idea than getting in them and being a sitting duck imo.

You should focus on training up your gunnery support skills to gain tracking speed, damage output, rate of fire and falloff. Min frigates are almost always AC fit and one of the biggest advantages of the AC is its falloff compared to other close range small turrets. For instance a blaster fit Frig. If u were to orbit @ 500m (what you should do with long range turret fit boats/cruiser size boats) a blaster fit boat would be able to beat you, but if you knock your orbit back so your essentially fighting in your falloff.

You will be well outside of your enemies optimal+falloff but still be nicely close enough to deal a decent amount of damage. The same goes for missile boats, where this utilizes your tracking speed bonuses and essentially uses speed tanking as its main defence.

The strategy hear is to orbit pretty much at your peak range where your dps output will drop quite a bit but you want to be orbiting at as close to your max speed as possible. this is because msl dmg is negated by your speed -> explosion velocity *minus* ship velocity = damage intake (well actually, its explosion radius AND explosion velocity *minus* ship signature radius AND ship velocity = damage intake) so basically orbiting at a wider range, giving you a higher speed, will negate quite a bit of the missile damage while still being inside your optimal+falloff so you will 'hopefully' have the upper hand in damage output.

Make sure, though, your orbit+speed isn't so high that your angular velocity goes over your turrets tracking speed, you can check this by having 'angular velocity' column on your overview, and compare the angular velocity readout with your turrets tracking speed readout in the turret attributes tab on the show info window. They are both measured in radians per second. I won't go into the specifics of what radians are, as its both incredibly long winded, and not actually important. just make sure your angular velocity doesn't go over your tracking speed, or your hit percentage will drop dramatically :).

Other Skills you should be focusing on are your armor tanking skills, your cap skills (for armor tanking) armor tanking resistance compensation skills and speed tanking (the navigation section) skills.
You need to get to being able to use T2 of most of the modules you want to be using, with the exception of a few, for instance 'x'mm reinforced rolled tungsten plates are AS GOOD as the T2 version with a LOWER Pgrid/CPU need.

There is also high debate with turrets and DPS Vs Tracking speed Vs Rate of Fire differences. But the general idea is the bigger the turret in 'mm' the higher the dps, but the slower the tracking and the slower the Rate of Fire (RoF). meaning, depending on what you have fit refines the effectiveness against certain sized targets -> bigger = easier to hit -> use bigger turrets. Same visa verse.

I could go on and on about this stuff, but i'm running out of words lol.

Finally. Get AS GOOD AS YOU CAN with frigates until you move onto AFs, which you SHOULD move onto. And use the Rifter as a 'training' wolf/Jag. The rifter PWNS, and i've had many good fights (i've been victorious in) with them.

Also, allot of winning is down to Out of Game skill, as apposed to in game Skill points. So think about that, and get practicing! A great way of doing that is getting connected to the test server (singularity) and training on there. Its invaluable for training pvp. Anyone will tell you that.

Good luck man! fly safe

Psy. o7

Posted - 2009.03.18 16:46:00 - [12]

 

Originally by: Joh Lan

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The key is the sweet falloff bonus of the incursus. If you look at the optimal+falloff of the two ships you will find that in the range of 6-7kms the incursus (with null vs rifter with barrage) wins.

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Interesting I never looked at that actually as I fit it with t1. I wouldn't say its better then the rifter in all situations (even if it could kill it 1v1) , rifter has less signature, more agile, more speed. Better to get under guns of bigger targets, it can fit nos and repper more easily. Incursus is awesome for fighting other frigs and inties and with its high dps it can gank stuff and get out before help arrives. Also rifter has an extra low that it can fit with speed mod or similar.

But they are both great ships. I do prefer the incursus for its gank though.

Also a rail incursus has its uses

Posted - 2009.03.19 13:08:00 - [14]

 

I'll go against the grain and say that AFs are almost never worth the bother in PvP.

They basicly have no role in fleet combat.
And in solo PvP they're just not worth the price of losing them when you could've used a fully insured T1 cruiser for like 1/10th the price and do exactly the same things.

If you're some rich guy swiming in moneys sure knock yourself out, but i would never advise a new player to PvP in AFs.

Posted - 2009.03.19 17:23:00 - [16]

 

The good assault ships are fiendishly expensive. You're looking at around the 25 million mark for a Jaguar or Ishkur. For that you could buy a fully fitted Rupture which would not only make the cost of flying the ships cheaper but also allow you to take on a wider range of targets. There was some good advice earlier in the thread. Fly a Rifter. Get all the relevant support skills to IV (see here for a list of relevant skills). Once you're competent in the Rifter start training for the Rupture and get all the relevant skills to IV for that, too. By then you should have learnt a lot about PvP in a relatively expensive way (good buy orders can get a T2-fit Rifter for about 5 million ISK) and will know whether you prefer small ships or larger ships. If you like small ships then AFs could be the way to go. If you like larger ships then the battlecruiser is the next step on your ladder. Either way you'll have a great skill base in and out of game.

Posted - 2009.03.20 08:13:00 - [18]

 

Every time I try to think fit/think about a minnie AF/intie for combat I give up after a few minutes and go back to the Rifter. Wolf lacks a midslot and armor tanking T2 minnies have resists issues. The Jaguar is good at popping frigates but that's about it.

Best combat intie; Taranis, Crusader, Crow

Best combat AF: Ishkur, Vengeance

Posted - 2009.03.20 13:19:00 - [20]

 

I would say Assault Frigates are very good, but wouldn't recommend them to someone relatively new to the game, and for several reasons.

Firstly, they are very cost intensive, and if you lose them regularly, this can lose you a lot of money. Tech 1 cruisers and above are a better bet until you find yourself a good way of earning ISK to cover the cost of Tech 2.

Secondly, they do need a few skills to be able to fly properley. It's best to get them to a good level before investing in something that will cost you a lot to lose. There are a few minimum requirements to hit, plus a few good extras, depending on which weapons systems you use.

Thirdly, you want to get a good idea of each level of combat, and not just frigates. Even if you never take up flying cruisers in the long run, it gives you a good idea of their relative strengths and weaknesses. Plus, with experimentation, you'll find ships which you would never have thought of flying before. Most Gallente like myself stick with a Thorax, but I diverisified and discovered just how much I like the Rupture. It's different for each person, but that you'll have to find out for yourself.

Posted - 2009.03.20 15:03:00 - [22]

 

Edited by: Cpt Cosmic on 20/03/2009 15:06:32
a single med neut will do nothing against a frigate (small nos, cap booster and natural regeneration anyone?) also some AS will tank you easily if set up properly or kill you if you dont get a lucky ecm cycle.

why not use:

800mm plate
dmg control
energized adaptive

mwd
scram
web
TARGET PAINTER

3 180mm AC
2 small neuts (short cycle time is more important than alpha cap)

2 hobbos & 3 valks (valks are fast and track well esp with the TARGET PAINTER)

does not rely on lucky ecm cycles and hits AS hard in the arse

Posted - 2009.03.20 17:02:00 - [24]

 

Ugh... yes AF's are amazing; Ishkur hands down being the best...

But if you really want to learn to PVP it's not what you fly it's where you fly... join faction warfare, fit some Ruptures and go have fun; hell FW makes Rifters truly viable for real pvp. Rupture is an amazing cruiser, probably second only to the Thorax for dps capability; and in faction warfare you'll find a lot more fair fights than you would roaming low sec in a solo frig. You'll meet too many neut domi's in low sec, you'd either get bored or the risk would vastly outweigh the benefit.

Posted - 2009.03.21 15:16:00 - [26]

 

Edited by: Kessiaan on 21/03/2009 15:15:56
I'm lazy so I'll just quote myself...

Originally by: Kessiaan

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Since Quantum Rise, AFs are actually really good in the hands of a skilled pilot.

PROs:

* Small sig, high resists, and high speed makes them very resistant to medium size weapons and virtually immune to large ones.
* They put out near cruiser-level DPS
* They're agile enough to evade almost all gate camps - a heavily sigamp'd SB'd interceptor is about the only thing that can catch them on a gate.
* If you're into Factional Warfare, AFs are argueably the best plex tanks for both medium and major plexes.
* They can run lowsec exploration complexes without issues, and are fast enough to GTFO in plenty of time to avoid getting popped if you get probed down and you don't notice for some reason until the hostiles actually show up. Haven't tried taking them into wormholes though, so I don't know how they perform there.
* In groups, they can shred larger ships very quickly.
* Being frigates, they lock fast. So you'll get more pod kills.
* They can do (some) level 4 missions, though with the recent changes to belts in lowsec it'd be a lot easier to just rat in 0.1, which they happen to be excellent at.

CONs:

* Hard to take down anything bigger than a cruiser solo.
* Vulnerable to light drones. Most ships with a drone bay pack a flight of Warrior IIs these days for this reason. You can deal with it but it's definately something to keep in mind when fitting up your AF.
* Extremely vulnerable to being neuted. AFs are almost always active tanked and permarun an Afterburner, or (much less often), an MWD.
* AF gangs are common enough now that many cruiser pilots (not a majority by any means but enough to worry about) will fit specifically to engage AF gangs. A Throax with a 1600mm plate, 3x magstabs, light neutrons, and a full flight of ECM drones, piloted by someone with good skills, can fight 3-4 AFs at once and win. The Vexor, Rupture, and Omen can also be fit with deadly anti-AF fits, though these are much less common as they lack the ability of the aforementioned Thorax to engage other cruisers.
* They cost about as much as BC to replace when they pop.

I love my AFs. I love my T1 cruisers too. They both have a place and are both excellent tools in the hands of someone who knows how to use them. And, as was said earlier, the skills needed to fly AFs will be very useful elsewhere. You really can't go wrong with them.

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Posted - 2009.03.22 05:43:00 - [28]

 

Iskur FTW in solo PVP, i have killed countless cruisers, AF's, frigates, destroyers on my main with these beasts. I even took on a rapier the other day which ended with him running with his tail between his legs, killed his drones and took him into armour although it did take fifteen minutes worth of sweaty manouvering and drone flipping.

A properly fitted ishkur will own any battlecruiser that isnt packing neuts or alot of small high powered drones, double webs are also a worry but very rare to see. I have killed BC's with other AF's in tow and know for certain i can do it solo just havent been lucky enough to find a sucker about.

Expensive though. For a cheap solo ship go vexor, arbitrator or rupture. Caldari lick b*lls for solo work

Posted - 2009.03.22 11:47:00 - [30]

 

A well-fit T1 cruiser can beat a well-fit AF; my Thorax eats AFs, even Ishkurs, for breakfast. However, I find that AF's often do better than T1 cruisers against BCs. For example, in my Ishkur I can tackle a typical PvP Drake and hold it all day, able to repair any damage he can deal. That Drake would have a much easier time inflicting damage on my Thorax, and I'd end up having to run away.

If your opponent has small turrets or light drones, the T1 cruiser would likely fare better; if he has heavy turrets and drones, the AF may be the better choice.