| Author |
Topic |
Zahorite |
Posted - 2009.11.03 06:10:00 - [ 1] - Quote
Edited by: Zahorite on 03/11/2009 06:47:56
Edited by: Zahorite on 03/11/2009 06:16:20
I'm aware we have a ton of threads out there about this topic. However, I want to try putting up an idea that is actually constructive, well thought out, and doesn't have any whining. Plus these both have the advantage of causing no work for CCP.
So here goes, there are three main ways for people to fix ninja salvaging.
The first is what I've always done. Whenever I find someone ninja salvaging my mission I target whatever they are trying to salvage and blow it to bits. Sure I don't get any isk out of this, but I get something I value a lot more. I get to entertain myself while I watch them go back and forth trying to get something while I practice locking and blowing up stuff. If everyone did this ninja salvagers would stop salvaging any mission that someone is in, eventually they may even start asking people if they can salvage their mission.
The second solution basically has the same effect as flagging ninja salvagers. That is that anyone that just wants to blow up intruders in their missions can head down to low sec. Sure it involves a bit more risk, it also offers better rewards. Shooting a ninja salvager is just going to have them run away and then either stay away or come back with a pvp ship and blow you up, I’d rather not worry about if they are coming back. In fact a whole new group of gankers will show up trying to get people to shoot them when they salvage wrecks, and if they aren't shot they will keep on salvaging. Flagging salvagers will only make more ninja salvagers rather than less. At least in low sec you can be pretty sure that if someone shows up in your mission that you should go ahead and either shoot them or run away.
If you don't want to move to low sec but are only really focused on making money anyway and would still be willing to risk shooting at a ninja salvager if they got flagged this third solution is for you. Find a corporation in 0.0 space and go rat down there. I easily make over 20 million isk an hour even on a bad hour. And I've never lost a ship in 0.0 while ratting, overall I'd say it's actually safer than it would be to shoot at a ninja salvager. And it's a lot more fun than mission running if you are interested in a bit of casual pvp. Plus once Dominion is out they are going to want as many people as they can get down there.
Anyway those are my two constructive ideas, you guys can go ahead and start either cheering or flaming me. Doesn’t matter to me because at the very least the first idea works, nobody I’ve blown wrecks up on has tried to ninja salvage from me again and even if they did I’d just have more fun which is what this game is supposed to be about. And before you argue this doesn't belong here just remember it is an idea, it's just one that's already in the game. |
Markus Reese
Caldari
Lorentzian Expeditionaries |
Posted - 2009.11.03 06:27:00 - [ 2] - Quote
Well, two problems. First blowing up wrecks defeats the purpose. Ninjas will wane, then come back. And salvaging would be better if it wasn't begging.
Second, the head to low sec so you can salvage and shoot ninjas. Why should my security status and risk of concord, getting agro timer etc, just to protect something.
The issue with salvage is that it is busted, it is now the highest grossing, lowest sp form of isk earning in the game. Shooting wrecks don't work cause most sit cloaked and wait til you enter the next room. Is just too much isk in salvage now, bout time it is upgraded to a real profession. You said it yourself, is a ton of threads about this, meaning there is a real issue about it. In fact, by my estimates, it is the forum's number one issue.
Replies like this remind me of the nano nerf and everybody saying players just need to adapt, speed is fine. Eve is about competition, skill and survival of the fittest. Anything that is detriment to this, (such as the salvage mechanics) needs to be fixed. I hope this bumps off quick and you trolled the NS threads, why did you even make this... why did I write a response even... |
Zahorite |
Posted - 2009.11.03 06:40:00 - [ 3] - Quote
Edited by: Zahorite on 03/11/2009 06:52:54
First of all I did read a lot of the ninja salvaging threads. Most of the ideas are way worse than taking a trip to low sec to mission run, will take months to put in place at least, etc. The only one I really thought anything of was putting a timer on the wrecks, of course the idea I believe was to flag anyone not obeying that timer which destroys the idea. If it only allowed the owner to salvage and loot that wreck for say an hour and then didn't flag anyone even if they emptied out all your cans I'd be all for it.
Well first of all I don't think ninja salvager's will keep on coming after you if you just blow up the wrecks when they are around. If they make less money they may move on, at the very least they won't pick you as their next target, perhaps they will even learn some manners and start teaming up with mission runners. All I know is that it works, and you won't have to wait for CCP to make the changes in order to start doing it. It may not be perfect but few things in life are perfect, and I usually actually enjoy it losing a few million isk on a lvl 4 is worth it. And if you are worried about them salvaging a room while you are in the next just go get your salvager and salvage it and then go get your mission running ship again, all you really need to do is put one gun on your salvager to still be able to use this solution. It's a lot easier to blow up a wreck than to salvage it.
I know going to low sec isn't what people want to do. But it is exactly what flagging ninja salvagers will turn high sec mission running into. Either people won't shoot ninja salvagers which will keep it all the same, or they will and it will be nearly as risky as mission running in low sec is without the higher reward you get in low sec. Also you don't risk Concord in low sec, that is why all the pirates are down there.
As for why you replied, maybe it's because what I'm saying is actually right. It is a solution and it will work right now instead of waiting for at least a few months to get what you say you want, which still probably won't work. Finding a perfect solution and then programming that won't happen for at least a year, do you really want to wait that long?
Hmm I forgot a third option, I'll go ahead and update my first post with it. |
Saerinea Kael |
Posted - 2009.11.03 06:50:00 - [ 4] - Quote
Your first suggestion would work if you didn't make one fundamental assumption about ninja salvagers, they don't care about profits. A ninja is a ninja not to make money for himself (not to say this isn't a nice bonus) but is a ninja to keep you from making money. The game mechanics allow for ninjas to grief other players by simply partaking in a mini-profession, this is the primary goal. You may not realize it, but most ninjas can and do run level 4 missions and resort to being ninjas for entertainment. As such, by destroying the wrecks you do the primary goal of the ninjas for them, and most love the resulting display of "fireworks" as they sometimes call it, and will continue to sit in the mission and fly to the wrecks so that they can ensure that you get no loot or salvage.
TL;DR: Ninjas like it when you pop the wrecks, it gives some of them stiffies. |
Zahorite |
Posted - 2009.11.03 07:01:00 - [ 5] - Quote
Edited by: Zahorite on 03/11/2009 07:02:06 Originally by: Saerinea Kael
Your first suggestion would work if you didn't make one fundamental assumption about ninja salvagers, they don't care about profits. A ninja is a ninja not to make money for himself (not to say this isn't a nice bonus) but is a ninja to keep you from making money. The game mechanics allow for ninjas to grief other players by simply partaking in a mini-profession, this is the primary goal. You may not realize it, but most ninjas can and do run level 4 missions and resort to being ninjas for entertainment. As such, by destroying the wrecks you do the primary goal of the ninjas for them, and most love the resulting display of "fireworks" as they sometimes call it, and will continue to sit in the mission and fly to the wrecks so that they can ensure that you get no loot or salvage.
You know I bet every ninja salvager says that they are only doing it for a bit of fun, especially the ones that are actually doing it for the money. I just ignore what they say. Can you really say that salvaging is fun, I find it to be one of the more boring aspects of this game except for mining, the only redeeming factor is the money. If they really enjoyed it then they would actually make a goal of finding me again and have me blow up my wrecks a second time. Instead they go and find someone else. Sure they often fly to almost every wreck hoping that eventually I'll stop and then they will know I won't do it next time they come around, but I just keep on blowing them up. Actions speak louder than words. |
Markus Reese
Caldari
Lorentzian Expeditionaries |
Posted - 2009.11.03 07:49:00 - [ 6] - Quote
Well, if salvaging became a profession, I would say it could be enjoyable. There are people who love to trade in eve. Some like mining and making stuff with the ore. I love exploration. I can spend a day in eve roaming cloaked in lowsec looking for just one thing of value. In the help channel, I have encountered a number of people who want to do what I proposed in the salvage profession overhaul post of mine. Some people want to scan about looking for that treasure trove of salvage and sell it. People like myself have fun in the tough spots, close pvp etc, but also enjoy relaxing play on occasion with mission overkill as a team, or a weekend mining op.
One thing that nobody enjoys is a misbalance, no matter the game. For salvage to work at all with the increased demands, it needs to be made into a new profession, full on like mining. All one has to do is look at the sheer number of riggings there are. It is a full time job. Making it such would be great for manf mining corps cause it adds more variety for those players and increases a market supply of preset up ships. And yeah. Unfortunately, people who want to make a business of rig manufacturing, like members of my corp, need to run missions to get the wrecks, buy the salvage or beg others. That is the problem, we are not full on offensive skilled, we are industrial, it takes a bit to clear a decent mission, but have to because that is the only way.
I would love it if isk/hour/skillpoint was equal to that of mining or mission running. That way mission runners wouldn't even care about looting or salvaging. People like my corpies who have no strong desire to run missions could migrate around with an orca and salvage boats getting the salvage to make stuff. And people like ninjas and enjoy taking and making other people pop wrecks can still do it too. That is my view. It isn't about ownership, it is about, well, the fact that people who want to be salvagers cannot just be salvagers. They have to be mission runner, beggars or thieves. |
Vincea Vega |
Posted - 2009.11.03 09:23:00 - [ 7] - Quote
There is no problem, so no need to solve anything.
The loot in a wreck belongs to you, the salvage is free for all. If you think the ninja salvager is making too much isk/hr just go do it yourself or blow the wrecks up. Or try suicide ganking him with an alt if he's in a non-tanked ship. |
CCP Incognito
 |
Posted - 2009.11.03 09:35:00 - [ 8] - Quote
Not many people have noticed but in the next release a wreck owner can abandon a wreck and it changes to be a free for all, once abandoned the wreck will not flag someone for theft.
Does this change things for you guys?
|
Robert Caldera |
Posted - 2009.11.03 10:14:00 - [ 9] - Quote
Originally by: CCP Incognito
Not many people have noticed but in the next release a wreck owner can abandon a wreck and it changes to be a free for all, once abandoned the wreck will not flag someone for theft.
Does this change things for you guys?
automatic abandon after a timer of, lets say, 5-10 minutes would be great. |
AsheraII |
Posted - 2009.11.03 10:37:00 - [ 10] - Quote
Originally by: CCP Incognito
Not many people have noticed but in the next release a wreck owner can abandon a wreck and it changes to be a free for all, once abandoned the wreck will not flag someone for theft.
Does this change things for you guys?
Not really, since MR's prefer salvage over loot. Why? 1) Salvage takes WAY less space inside the limited cargoholds of MR's 2) The amount of space loot requires is occasionally rediculous high. Some modules take as much as 10% of the cargospace available, while their value (even their reprocessed mineral value) is the same or even lower of an object taking only a fifth of their space. 3) Salvage takes as little as 1/100th to 1/10th of the space that even the smallest looted module takes, while it's value ranges from 1/10th of such a module upto 10 times that of the module (except for named/faction/pirate modules). So while it's nice to leave loot available to others, it's of little consequence, since many people will still not grab it, or only pick a few items. For this to affect Salvaging, either Salvage needs to take more space, more Salvage should be created from a cycle (lowering marketprice) or looted modules need to take less space. If the cargospace required and/or the ISK values of the two were comparable somehow, then there'd definitely be an effect from setting your loot to FFA. |
Armina Dottir |
Posted - 2009.11.03 10:48:00 - [ 11] - Quote
Originally by: Robert Caldera
Originally by: CCP Incognito
Not many people have noticed but in the next release a wreck owner can abandon a wreck and it changes to be a free for all, once abandoned the wreck will not flag someone for theft.
Does this change things for you guys?
automatic abandon after a timer of, lets say, 5-10 minutes would be great.
Not all ppl run missions and salvage at the same time, some ppl return in a salvage ship. Soo i'd increase such an authomatic timre to 30 min to give ppl the option to salvahe their own work. |
Larinioides cornutus |
Posted - 2009.11.03 11:09:00 - [ 12] - Quote
Edited by: Larinioides cornutus on 03/11/2009 11:48:05Edited by: Larinioides cornutus on 03/11/2009 11:40:27Edited by: Larinioides cornutus on 03/11/2009 11:08:58 Originally by: Robert Caldera
automatic abandon after a timer of, lets say, 5-10 minutes would be great.
Not everyone fly a marauder or doesnt care about salvage. A choice to set the timer, which's defaulted at 2h as it is now, would be nice. Tho seriously, who the hell would bother with such timer. Ninja's goal isnt to get the stuff in your pitiful npc wreck even tho it appear so. If I set it as FFA they might even get ****ed and go find a better target. This addition is redundant. EDIT: Redundant as long as I cannot scan down wreck. |
CCP Incognito
|
Posted - 2009.11.03 11:19:00 - [ 13] - Quote
Edited by: CCP Incognito on 03/11/2009 11:48:08 Originally by: Larinioides cornutus
Edited by: Larinioides cornutus on 03/11/2009 11:08:58
Originally by: CCP Incognito
automatic abandon after a timer of, lets say, 5-10 minutes would be great.
Not everyone fly a marauder or doesnt care about salvage. A choice to set the timer, which's defaulted at 2h as it is now, would be nice. Tho seriously, who the hell would bother with such timer. Ninja's goal isnt to get the stuff in your pitiful npc wreck even tho it appear so. If I set it as FFA they might even get ****ed and go find a better target. This addition is redundant.
Please don't miss quote me like that.  thanks for fixing :) |
Abrazzar |
Posted - 2009.11.03 11:25:00 - [ 14] - Quote
Does the abandon wreck feature have a always abandon/always claim flip switch? Having to manually abandon every single wreck would be.... awkward. |
Tiny Tove |
Posted - 2009.11.03 11:39:00 - [ 15] - Quote
Originally by: CCP Incognito
Not many people have noticed but in the next release a wreck owner can abandon a wreck and it changes to be a free for all, once abandoned the wreck will not flag someone for theft.
Does this change things for you guys?
Was there any thinking behind that? Or was it just wiping their noses for them to stop them accidentally shooting red things on the overview? |
Larinioides cornutus |
Posted - 2009.11.03 11:41:00 - [ 16] - Quote
Originally by: CCP Incognito
Please don't miss quote me like that.
Oops~ |
Nico Terces |
Posted - 2009.11.03 13:44:00 - [ 17] - Quote
I like the abandon wreck feature, now I can hire a ninjasalvager to steal my salvage and loot, for a nice price :)
I generally dont bother with looting and salvaging in the first place. Sure it's a nice addition, but having to fly through a 100km radius of scattered wrecks bores me out very quickly, I'd rather go back to shooting my rats, hence I dont care about ninja salvagers. Now however, when I get a ninjasalvager that doesnt want to pvp, I can charge him a few million isk and give him the option to take my loot as well :) |
Tiny Tove |
Posted - 2009.11.03 14:07:00 - [ 18] - Quote
Originally by: Nico Terces
I like the abandon wreck feature, now I can hire a ninjasalvager to steal my salvage and loot, for a nice price :)
I generally dont bother with looting and salvaging in the first place. Sure it's a nice addition, but having to fly through a 100km radius of scattered wrecks bores me out very quickly, I'd rather go back to shooting my rats, hence I dont care about ninja salvagers. Now however, when I get a ninjasalvager that doesnt want to pvp, I can charge him a few million isk and give him the option to take my loot as well :)
Yet nothing has changed, either in respect to this, or anything else. All the change as stated does is prevent you accidentally shooting the ninja. Now if you could turn ownership of the wrecks over to somebody else specific, then you have yourself something like you describe above, and something that can be potential used against ninjas, either to cause them to draw aggression from a standby protector, or to just give them the wreck when they show up, thus stopping you shooting them accidentally. What they've granted is very strange indeed. It changes almost nothing, you had to get the guy in your gang to get him to your mission anyway, since he's in your gang, him cleaning up your wrecks for you doesn't flag him. And if he probed you out, he's not really looking for your permission for anything at that point. So this is a very strange change indeed. Effort in, nothing out. Most odd. |
AsheraII |
Posted - 2009.11.03 14:11:00 - [ 19] - Quote
Originally by: Nico Terces
I like the abandon wreck feature, now I can hire a ninjasalvager to steal my salvage and loot, for a nice price :)
I generally dont bother with looting and salvaging in the first place. Sure it's a nice addition, but having to fly through a 100km radius of scattered wrecks bores me out very quickly, I'd rather go back to shooting my rats, hence I dont care about ninja salvagers. Now however, when I get a ninjasalvager that doesnt want to pvp, I can charge him a few million isk and give him the option to take my loot as well :)
Or alternatively, ask a cut of the proceeds, say, 30% of the Salvage, since that takes little to no cargospace anyway, while it's still valuable  |
Nico Terces |
Posted - 2009.11.03 14:13:00 - [ 20] - Quote
Edited by: Nico Terces on 03/11/2009 14:15:35Edited by: Nico Terces on 03/11/2009 14:14:28 Originally by: Tiny Tove
...
What they've granted is very strange indeed. It changes almost nothing, you had to get the guy in your gang to get him to your mission anyway, since he's in your gang, him cleaning up your wrecks for you doesn't flag him. And if he probed you out, he's not really looking for your permission for anything at that point. So this is a very strange change indeed. Effort in, nothing out. Most odd.
Ninjasalvagers that probe me out generally just take my salvage. I dont mind that, but what I meant to say is that, if I get a ninjasalvager in my mission in the first place, I might as well charge him a small fee so that he can loot all of my wrecks for a hefty extra profit without the risk of getting shot at. They dont have to accept my offer, nothing changes. But they might as well, which spells mutual profit. Edit: Misquoted  |
AnonyTerrorNinja
Minmatar
Buggers' Advanced Interstellar Transport
|
Posted - 2009.11.03 16:05:00 - [ 21] - Quote
When doing 1km/s in a speed-salvager, I don't mind spending a few minutes making a mission runner pop his wrecks while I'm busy probing for a new mission runner, personally.
I get something more than just the isk I might've gotten from the salvage/loot - I get to know that the mission runner, who has spent more time than me just to make those wrecks, won't be getting anything out of them either.
Make salvage flag? Sure, as a mission ninja I don't care - it won't stop me, since I take loot anyway.
However, what about people that rat in empire belts that don't ever salvage/loot. Or, for that matter, miners, who just have their drones kill off the rats. If you have some 1-day old guy come along and see those wrecks, and give him a warning that the entire corp it belongs to will be able to attack him if he salvages it, he's going to be demoralized; a mini-profession that he might have wanted to take part in, now carries the risk of his losing his first 'normal frigate'.
Mission runners in particular are the only people that I will ever hear these kinds of suggestions from, because they are the ones that rely on the argument of having the option to 'defend what is rightfully theirs'. Thing is, a large portion of those that want this kind of change would not take advantage of it anyway, they'd still complain about the people ninjaing their missions, or worse, claim they are 'unable to do anything because if they shoot the ninja he'll just come back in something to kill them with'.
Let's take this as an example scenario.
1. Mission runner is shooting away, making many pretty upside down triangles
2. Ninja comes along, salvages/loots, paying no mind to the mission runner present (apart from noting ship type and weapon configuration)
3. Mission runner shoots the ninja
4. Ninja leaves, comes back in a PVP ship, to find the mission runner has left their mission, afraid of the potential PVP waiting for him
4.1 Ninja sits there for his 15min timer while having a friend or an alt come and finish the looting/salvaging job
5. If the mission runner comes back at all, he will have to deal with the guy he already shot, whether he likes it or not
So tell me, where in this does the mission runner gain any kind of advantage anyway? If he's going to be incapable of dealing with the ninja, he's going to be incapable of dealing with the ninja; there's no two ways about it. |
Traska Gannel |
Posted - 2009.11.03 17:24:00 - [ 22] - Quote
Originally by: CCP Incognito
Not many people have noticed but in the next release a wreck owner can abandon a wreck and it changes to be a free for all, once abandoned the wreck will not flag someone for theft.
Does this change things for you guys?
I don't think this would change anything unless the wreck owner was initially given both salvaging and looting rights (which actually makes sense to me since they destroyed it and effectively claimed the wreck first) ... and was then allowed to abandon both. This would allow players who want to loot and salvage the right to do so, those who do not could set the wrecks to be automatically abandoned and thus anyone could loot/salvage them ... and finally, players who still wished to ninja salvage or loot can STILL do so ... just with the added risk that if they salvage a wreck that is still claimed they are flagged for aggression. Something like this is probably what most folks are asking for ... |
Zahorite |
Posted - 2009.11.03 18:41:00 - [ 23] - Quote
Edited by: Zahorite on 03/11/2009 18:41:30
My point is that there already are ways to deal with ninja salvager's in the game. These aren't going to take months to implement and can be used instantly.
I don't care how many ninja salvager's always seem to say that they don't care if I blow up the wrecks. The point is that after I blow them all up next time they scan me down they know what I'm going to do, so they go scan someone else down instead of wasting their time. And no, this is not the character that I use for high sec mission running, so trying to find me and make a point by scanning me down multiple times isn't going to work.
What I know is that I'm sick of all the stupid ideas and the whining everywhere. The worst idea for a solution that I've heard recently was to Concord people that shot their wrecks. That doesn't solve ninja salvaging, it makes it worse, in addition we would have people that accidently shoot their wrecks (I've done it a couple of times when I thought I was telling my ship to salvage). The second worse is to flag ninja salvagers, few people would do it, and those that did would cause more people to ninja salvage just to try to get people to shoot them.
Shooting your own wrecks to prevent them from being slavaged by a ninja salvager is the best solution currently available. In fact it might be beneficial if people shot even wrecks they weren't intending to salvage, it would reduce the profitability of ninja salvaging and hopefully a few ninja salvagers will move on. |
CCP Incognito
|
Posted - 2009.11.03 18:45:00 - [ 24] - Quote
Edited by: CCP Incognito on 03/11/2009 18:45:27
Had a chat with some designers this evening.
Ninja salvaging is intended game play. It was always intended that the wrecks are public, the loot is private.
They do not see it as a problem if others salvage your wrecks. |
Slapchop Gonnalovemynuts |
Posted - 2009.11.03 18:54:00 - [ 25] - Quote
Originally by: Zahorite
...stuff..
I have never understood your type of mentality. Because someone wants something that you can't get before they do, you destroy it so that nobody gets it. That just seems petty and wasteful to me. It would be akin to an old man chopping down his apple tree because school kids are picking the apples on the way to school, even tho the apples would otherwise fall to the ground and rot away. With your 'solution' nobody wins and you just show people what kind of petty, adolescent person you are. |
Zahorite |
Posted - 2009.11.03 19:09:00 - [ 26] - Quote
Originally by: Slapchop Gonnalovemynuts
I have never understood your type of mentality. Because someone wants something that you can't get before they do, you destroy it so that nobody gets it. That just seems petty and wasteful to me. It would be akin to an old man chopping down his apple tree because school kids are picking the apples on the way to school, even tho the apples would otherwise fall to the ground and rot away. With your 'solution' nobody wins and you just show people what kind of petty, adolescent person you are.
I do it on principal. Your example doesn't represent the situation correctly. Let's say that I am that old man, but instead of one apple tree I own an orchard. Now let's say that I have a couple of apple trees that are near a path and kids start grabbing apples as they walk by, I don't like it since they didn't ask but I'm probably going to be okay with it. I was planning on harvesting those apples, but hey it's not a big deal. Now let's say that they take all the apples they can easily reach on those trees and they start moving further into my orchard and taking more apples, after all they have already taken a few of my apples and I didn't react what does it matter if they wander into my orchard and take a few more. Well now it's getting worse for me, so what do I do? I tell them to cut it out and then I go take an axe to the trees that are near the path. I remove whatever temptations I can, maybe I put up a fence and no trespassing signs. Next year I hope that they don't get used to taking my apples. But I'm still a nice guy, if say some kid wants an apple and asked me for one I'd be glad to give them one, in fact I might need some extra harvester's in the fall and may even give them a job. It's the same way for ninja salvaging. I didn't mind the first couple of times I just let it slide. Eventually when it started to have a bigger effect I did whatever I could to stop it, and the most effective way I've found is to destroy the wrecks the one in 50 times that I have to in order to prevent myself from being ninja salvaged 1 in 10 times. If a ninja salvager were ever to actually ask me if they could salvage I would gladly give them a job, I don't like salvaging but the money is good. I'd much rather have half the salvage money and be able to do twice the missions. |
Markus Reese
Caldari
Lorentzian Expeditionaries |
Posted - 2009.11.03 19:25:00 - [ 27] - Quote
Edited by: Markus Reese on 03/11/2009 19:29:35 Originally by: CCP Incognito
Not many people have noticed but in the next release a wreck owner can abandon a wreck and it changes to be a free for all, once abandoned the wreck will not flag someone for theft.
Does this change things for you guys?
I agree, this is a very good start, and I see it as a start to increasing salvaging profession as a whole. Is there any word if abandoned wrecks would be scannable as well? I do not salvage my missions myself and would love to make a right click and abandon so peeps can come and salvage at will for profession ^.^ They already show up on the D-scan after all. Quote:
Had a chat with some designers this evening.
Ninja salvaging is intended game play. It was always intended that the wrecks are public, the loot is private.
They do not see it as a problem if others salvage your wrecks.
I thank you for this information, is greatly apreciated, what about the issue of sp needed to salvage. I am fine with the ninja salvage myself, but any future plans to release ships or needing higher end salvage gear to access the mediums and large? If somebody had to train and invest a bit more money to salvage a large wreck, I would have no problem with them coming and stealing, cause they would have to invest time to that goal ^.^ |
Slapchop Gonnalovemynuts |
Posted - 2009.11.03 19:51:00 - [ 28] - Quote
Originally by: Zahorite
I do it on principal. Your example doesn't represent the situation correctly. Let's say that I am that old man, but instead of one apple tree I own an orchard. Now let's say that I have a couple of apple trees that are near a path and kids start grabbing apples as they walk by, I don't like it since they didn't ask but I'm probably going to be okay with it. I was planning on harvesting those apples, but hey it's not a big deal. Now let's say that they take all the apples they can easily reach on those trees and they start moving further into my orchard and taking more apples, after all they have already taken a few of my apples and I didn't react what does it matter if they wander into my orchard and take a few more. Well now it's getting worse for me, so what do I do?
I tell them to cut it out and then I go take an axe to the trees that are near the path. I remove whatever temptations I can, maybe I put up a fence and no trespassing signs. Next year I hope that they don't get used to taking my apples. But I'm still a nice guy, if say some kid wants an apple and asked me for one I'd be glad to give them one, in fact I might need some extra harvester's in the fall and may even give them a job.
It's the same way for ninja salvaging. I didn't mind the first couple of times I just let it slide. Eventually when it started to have a bigger effect I did whatever I could to stop it, and the most effective way I've found is to destroy the wrecks the one in 50 times that I have to in order to prevent myself from being ninja salvaged 1 in 10 times. If a ninja salvager were ever to actually ask me if they could salvage I would gladly give them a job, I don't like salvaging but the money is good. I'd much rather have half the salvage money and be able to do twice the missions.
First off, good job taking my analogy and running with it, it makes it pretty easy to understand your point. However, I still feel that your solution is counterproductive when you have options at hand which will "keep the kids out of the orchard" so to speak. You can build a better fence (mission in ships which are harder to scan or mission in less populated areas), pick them yourself before the kids get them (fit tractor and salvager to mission ship), or even hire laborers to pick your apples before the kids get them (have a buddy or alt in mission with you tractoring and salvaging). In the end you end up saving your orchard and getting all the apples instead of being a crotchety old man and giving up on your crop because "the principle of it" prevents you from taking any other course. |
Lucas Avidius
Einherjar Rising
Cry Havoc. |
Posted - 2009.11.03 19:54:00 - [ 29] - Quote
What I think needs to happen is that the random griefplay aspect of ninja salvaging needs to be nerfed, and the mini-profession aspect of it needs to be buffed. to that end, I suggest the following:
-First of all, the aggro mechanics need to stay the same as they are. Mission runners who want salvaging to flag the ninja are quite frankly insane and have no idea the horrors that would unleash upon them. If salvaging aggros, we would would see an epic rise in whine threads about how mission runners can't fight back because every time someone got ninjaed and shot back, they'd end up dead because PvPers fit their ships for PvP, and a mission fit ship crumbles against a PvP fit ship.
-Second, make missioners hard to scan out again by restoring the old mechanic of deadspace interfering with probes. Do something about the old trick of scanning for drones as well. Make anyone who wants to grief mission runners scan for ships and have to really work to get that warpable scan.
-Third, allow wreck fields to show up as an exploration signature of some kind. The more wrecks in an area, and the older said wrecks are, the stronger the scan result and the easier it would be to find those old, abandoned wrecks. Extend the wreck life to say, 4 hours, and make them auto-abandon no matter what after two hours. Make mission-loot cargo containers (stuff that's been salvaged but not looted) also last longer, contribute to the wreck-field scan-ability, and auto-abandon.
-Next, make salvaging take a little more skill to get into. Right now all it requires is mechanic 3 and survey 3. I suggest increasing the requirements to level 4 on both of those skills, and possibly adding a tertiary skill requirement that requires level 3 or 4. Make sure any tertiary skill required is a useful skill.
-Finally, consider adding a minor penalty for invading someones mission while not in their alliance, corp, gang, or set to blue standings. Nothing major. I would suggest a minor standing hit to both the corp that issued the mission and the navy associated with the faction that owns the space the mission takes place in. In case the corps are one and the same, just give the one standing hit. Call it interfering with security procedures or something. Do not give a faction hit or any kind of aggro.
What these changes would do would cut down on the random griefing aspect of ninja salvaging while allowing a determined griefer to still mess with anyone he wants to, with a little more effort and time. It would also expand salvaging, particularly in mission hubs, to true profession status. In addition, if the old deadspace interferes with scanning mechanic is brought back it would afford low sec missioners more security and might add some incentive for them to try their hand there, and we all know how much low sec needs something to attract carebears. |
atanse |
Posted - 2009.11.03 20:11:00 - [ 30] - Quote
I would suggest for ninjas that follow in missions and salvage/steal while you are fighting: have all aggro shift to them if they salvage/steal.
Do not know if this is an original Idea.. but figured I'd put it out there.
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