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blankseplocked The Tricky Trade of Trading: Doin' da Docked Deal
 
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Herko Kerghans
Taleweaver
Posted - 2005.07.13 03:56:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Herko Kerghans on 25/03/2006 15:55:43


A’ight crew, lissenup! Ain’t no love from the mighty CCP for the rookie trader, skill descriptions are a mess, and my heart just cannot take another hauler pilot with a question mark on his face, so here it goes: what do all those dark, obscure trade skills do?

Lessee!

Trade, Retail, Wholesale, Tycoon, Daytrading: if you cannot figure’em up for y’self… go pick a mining laser or camp a gate son. This career aint for ya’. Same for anybody asking “why do I need procurement? I can purchase any item in the region even if it is 64 jumps away!”

The rest of you: please open your wallets at the “Orders” tab and keep the lower part in view.

Accounting: Easy enough... it reduces your sell taxes. Pretty straightforward, huh? Every time you sell something, SCC gets 1% of the sell order total value… per level, you get a 0.1% reduction (you pay 0.9% at lvl1, 0.8% at lvl2... up to 0.5% at lvl5).You will see the % you pay under “transaction tax” on your “orders” screen.

Broker relations: Almost as straightforward… Almost. Each time you put an order (be it buy or sell), you pay 1% to this bloodsuckers. Every level of the skill reduces the amount per 0.05% (so, 0.95% at lvl 1, 0.9% at lvl 2…) You will see the % on “Base Broker fee” on the “order” tab. Bear in mind though:

-You pay the bloodsuckers every time you set up an order. If you cancel the order, you don’t get yer Isk back mkay? (the sell tax is only paid when you actually do the sell)

-If you are a trader (you are a trader, right? ‘cos, like, you are reading this!), remember you pay these bloody bloodsuckers TWICE every time you move an item: when you set up your purchase order, and when you set up your sell order!

-You DON’T pay if you buy or sell directly (as in, without setting up a purchase order).

Example 1: I go to the market, directly buy gizmo for 100 Isk, and then set up a sell order for 200 Isk (and they call themselves pirates because they blow up stuff… heh)

-When buying, you pay no tax nor broker fee

-When setting up the sell order, you pay the broker fee (2 Isk if no skill, reduced with Broker Relations)

-When and if you sell, you pay the SCC tax (2 Isk if no skill, reduced with accounting, which is to say you receive 198 Isk when the sell is completed)

Example 2: I set up a purchase order, buy gizmo for 100 Isk, then set up a sell order for 200 Isk.

-When setting up purchase order, you pay the broker fee (1 Isk if no skill, reduced with Broker Relations, so you gotta have 101 Isk in your hand).

-When setting up the sell order, you pay the broker fee AGAIN (2 Isk if no skill, reduced with Broker Relations).

-When and if you sell, you pay the SCC tax (2 Isk if no skill, reduced with accounting, so you get 198 Isk when the sell is completed)

And remember… Broker relations influence your BASE broker fee. It is also influenced by your standing towards the Faction that controls the station where you set the order (ain’t got numbers, I ain’t no runner so my standings are crap)

Another thing: this lazy bastards don't lift a finger for less than 100 Isk. Good for them, me neither... and it means that if you actually enter an order for, say 1200 isk, the fee will not be 12 isk but 100 isk. If you try the above examples in practice, for a 100 isk order the dude will charge you another 100 isk. Cookie goes to Theron Gyrow for his outstanding perception on the matter.

(Of course... what kind of cheap jerk wastes a perfectly good order for less than 10.000 isk? Don't do it. I'm serious. Orders for less than 50.000 isk make baby Oveur cry, and all the other traders will laugh at you. I mean it!)

Herko Kerghans
Taleweaver
Posted - 2005.07.13 03:57:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Herko Kerghans on 12/03/2006 17:49:47


Margin Trading: this is some commonly overlooked cooool stuff. When you set up a purchase order, you gotta put your money into escrow. They kinda don’t trust you, mkay? But with margin trading, the amount of money you pay “up front” is reduced. Cool thing to free your cash flow!

Example 3: I set a purchase order to buy gizmo for 100 Isk. I have no Margin Trading; I gotta pay… how much?

Whoever said “100 Isk”, please go sit by the belt or the gate… those that said “101 Isk” can stay, those that said “100 plus broker fee” I will have to kill you ‘cos you are too damn smart for your own good, and my profits.

But: if I have Margin Trading up to lvl 1 (25% reduction) then:
-I pay up front the bloodsucker’s commission (the commission calculated for the full 100 Isk)
-I pay up front 75 Isk.
-When and if I buy the item, I pay the other 25 Isk.

Attention!
-Each level “multiplies” the previous by 0.75, mkay? So,
-No skill 100%
-Lvl 1 75%
-Lvl 2 56,25% (NOT 50%)

So yes… if you have 76 ISK you can enter a purchase order for 100Isk… if it gets filled, SOMEBODY will have to pay the other 25 Isk, and SOMEBODY better have the money by then ‘cos all sort of bad things would happen to SOMEBODY if not [Never tested it myself, word is your orders get cancelled and you lose the broker's fee. Thanks Lacero!]

You cannot see this %, but you can see the “Total in Escrow” (what you have already paid up front) and the “additional Isk to cover” on the “order” screen.

Marketing: Self descriptive AND IT WORKS JUST FINE KIDS. It does. You have an item 5 jumps away AND IN THE SAME REGION, RIGHT? you can sell it with marketing lvl2. You can see the distance under “Ask Range”

Procurement: Almost self descriptive… you can set a remote purchase order in another station with this skill. You can see how far under “Bid Range”. Two small details:

-You can only set a purchase order for items actually on sale. I mean, if you dock your ship and open the market tab, you can set a purchase order for ANYTHING that exists on the market, even if said item is not currently being sold anywhere in your region. But if you want to put a purchase order of that item in a station 10 jumps away, you will need Procurement lvl3 AND THE ITEM HAS TO BE BEING SOLD AT SAID STATION. (if somebody knows it different give me a holler)

-When you put a purchase order in the station you are in, you can set the range of effect to anything from “station” to “region”. You need no skill for this. But when you set a remote purchase order you need:

Visibility!

Remember the purchase order at the station you are docked? You can set any range you want… with a remote purchase order and no visibility, you can only set the range to “station”. Train this up, you can increase the range. Voila.

[NOTE: Before the 'Blood' patch, the skill had a wrong description; you may find people that, based in that old description, say that you need Visibility for your orders to be seen on the 'Buy' window. Nope, you can see all orders; this skill only affects the effect range]

You will your range at the “Remote bid range”

DON’T GET’EM MIXED UP: “Bid range” is for placing the remote purchase order, and it gives you the max distance between the system you are in, and the system you are placing the purchase order (and you increase it with “Procurement”). The range of your remote purchase order is your “Remote bid range” (and you increase it with “Visibility”)

EDIT: Lorelei Lee has a smart use for Vis. lvl V. Check post #85. Good only for Agent *****ee I mean Runners, but if you are, you may save a few iskies.

Herko Kerghans
Taleweaver
Posted - 2005.07.13 03:59:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Herko Kerghans on 25/03/2006 15:49:38

Now… that’s what the SKILLS do. What do YOU do with them … you wouldn’t want everything on a silver plate now would you? Go out there and have fun finding out for yerselves!

(a very, VERY good way to start is Kaii’s ass-kicking Trading 101)

One clarification, 'cos this has been asked many times: all the trade skills work for anything that can be sold or bought through the market. Yes, including NPC trade goods, and of course T1 stuff, implants, BPOs, reactions, minerals, raw ores...

The rule of thumb here is: if you can see it listed when "browsing" the market, you can but/sell that item through the market.

I'll say it again: yes, NPC trade goods, the ones some of you like to haul from here to there, are affected by the trade skills like marketing and procurement exactly the same way as any "PC" item.

But then...

...then, there is the real rare stuff. There is some stuff you cannot find listed in the market (let along being sold or bought), such as:
-"Rare" named modules (gistii, dark blood...)
-The +5 implants
-Faction ships, like that utter piece of engineering sex that is the Rattlesnake.

Those you got to move through escrow or player trade... or, use the following trick:

Originally by: "StarLite"
I once bought a succubus and I right-clicked on the suc and then clicked "Buy this item" and there were actually a few for sale on the market in that system.
Bear in mind that you must already HAVE one of the item you want to buy to be able to use the "buy this item" feature and that hardly anyone would ever use it, but it IS possible :)

So that is how it is done. Money makes money, as it were.

Never tested it myself, but StarLite seems sure of it, and Calleb confirms it, so I guess it is true. None of them is Deteis, mind you, so no way to be sure.

Of course, note that using the market to move items like this means that VERY few people are gonna see it... but hey, 'trader of exclusive stuff' does have a nice ring to it! Very Happy

[Further space reserved for comments and addendums. Trade skills being the slippery bastards they are, I'm sure I missed a few details. Show no mercy! Very Happy]


-Updated with the won't-lift-finger-for-less-than-100 comment for brokers (Theron Gyrow)

-Updated about cancel of purchase orders if not able to cover orders with margin trading (if something worse happens to ya', go talk with Lacero Callrisian!)

-Updated with Brej Donierik's you-better-don't-train-visibility-up-to-lvl-V, even though this is not a trade guide but a skill description... anyway, feeling soft hearted today so meh.

-Updated a HUGE mistake/type on the last paragraph: remote purchase order range is shown on "Bid Range" (first edition said "Ask Range"). In my defense I have to say that I wrote it ok on the individual descriptions of "marketing" and "purchasing"... but I screw it up in the grand finale, oh well! (THANKS A BUNCH Khandro Shimares, plus you get the the First Serious Screw Up Spotted Medal! Very Happy)

-Updated StarLite's tip about 'hidden markets'.

-Updated with Lorelei Lee's trick on what is Visibility lvl V good for. You gotta be a runner for it but hey, nobody's perfect!

-HOLY **** A ****ING MIRACLE AT LAST!! The description of Visibility has been updated. Trade Powah!! Very HappyVery HappyVery HappyVery Happy

[All jokes toward other professions are with malice towards none]

[This guide has been [23] approved. Printed in flame-free paper]

[No copyrights: feel free to distribute, copy, paste and upgrade]

[Traders do it docked!]


-

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.07.13 04:36:00 - [4]
 

/votes Sticky.

Theron Gyrow
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2005.07.13 06:28:00 - [5]
 

Excellent guide. One minor nitpick: you might mention somewhere that the minimum broker fee is 100 isk so testing your examples in-game will not quite give the results one would expect after reading this. Wink

Harisdrop
Gallente
Fat J
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2005.07.13 06:58:00 - [6]
 

I agree. This is how it is today. Its not what it was to be! You should be able to place buy orders in any station you range due to procurment.

Barbicane
TGUN Industries
Posted - 2005.07.13 08:17:00 - [7]
 

Good summary! Thank you. I'll bookmark this thread while waiting for a sticky.

Lacero Callrisian
Minmatar
Solar Storm
X-PACT
Posted - 2005.07.13 12:02:00 - [8]
 

I think if you buy on margin and run out of money the buy order is cancelled, this can be quite bad as you lose the brokers fee.

Thats the worst thats happened to me anyway and I do it all the time.

Hulredi
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2005.07.13 18:54:00 - [9]
 

Very nice guide. I learned alittle about the craft I do, but damnit now I am going to have more competition Sad Oh well competition is good I guess but it cuts into the profits sometimes.

Herko Kerghans
Taleweaver
Posted - 2005.07.14 05:31:00 - [10]
 

Thanks for the good comments!

Now go send a report bug so CCP puts the damned correct description on the skills!! Very Happy


Updated with Theron Gyrow's and Lacero Callrisian's comments. It's a Caldari's duty always to improve!

HippoKing
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2005.07.14 14:31:00 - [11]
 

stickify!!!!!!

Zaintiraris
Caldari
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2005.07.15 02:15:00 - [12]
 

I'm a reasonably good trader myself and I still enjoyed that read. I vote for a sticky too, but maybe in the new players forum, perhaps.

Linia
Gallente
Zaratha Zarati
Posted - 2005.07.15 15:21:00 - [13]
 

one comment from me:
GREAT GUIDE!
Now I finally find some.. use.. of the trade skills
even though they are no use at all any of them Razz

Herko Kerghans
Taleweaver
Posted - 2005.07.18 08:09:00 - [14]
 

Thanks for the good comments! Very Happy


Dont forget to send a bug report to your favorite Bug Hunter to ask them to pretty please, with sugar on top, and bowing before teh mighty Devs, change the description of the blasted skills to something that resembles a lil'bit closer what they actually do! Wink

Ki Shodan
Gallente
deep blue
Posted - 2005.07.18 17:42:00 - [15]
 

if they don't do it sticky in here, ask the guys from eve-i.com, if they would like to host it in their articles/guides section.

DethApostle
Minmatar
Doomheim
Posted - 2005.08.02 14:46:00 - [16]
 

Marketing:...

Really what is the point?
Great I can sell stuff 5 jumps, 10jumps, hell anywhere in the region with this skill.
Goody...
But i still have to haul the stuff there to make any profit.

So when is it a useful skill?
Or have I totally missed the point of this? ugh

Hague Starcatcher
Tanngrisnir and Tanngnjostr
Posted - 2005.08.02 17:30:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: DethApostle
Marketing:...

Really what is the point?
Great I can sell stuff 5 jumps, 10jumps, hell anywhere in the region with this skill.
Goody...
But i still have to haul the stuff there to make any profit.

So when is it a useful skill?
Or have I totally missed the point of this? ugh


I think you need to go sit by the belt or gate. Laughing

Sophie Mae
Posted - 2005.08.02 19:13:00 - [18]
 

What skill if any allows you to remotely modify a sell or buy order?

Thanks great guide.
Sophie Mae

Mr Popov
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2005.08.02 19:26:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: DethApostle
Marketing:...

Really what is the point?
Great I can sell stuff 5 jumps, 10jumps, hell anywhere in the region with this skill.
Goody...
But i still have to haul the stuff there to make any profit.

So when is it a useful skill?
Or have I totally missed the point of this? ugh


My home base is system X. I mine there regularly, have built up quite a stock on mineral A. Blast, mineral A is not selling for high enough, I am going to system Y to mine mineral B.

A week later I see that mineral A is selling for 10x it used to in system X, but I still want to stay in system Y to mine mineral B. Viola, procurement skill lets me sell the minerals without having to travel there.

Brej Donierik
Posted - 2005.08.02 19:45:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Herko Kerghans

DON’T GET’EM MIXED UP: “Ask range” is for placing the remote purchase order, and it gives you the max distance between the system you are in, and the system you are placing the purchase order (and you increase it with “Procurement”). The range of your remote purchase order is your “Remote bid range” (and you increase it with “Visibility”).



One thing to add.

A buy order's range is basically how far the sellers can be from the dot where you put that order. You set up a buy order in Yulai to buy tritanium, set it for Region-wide, and the miner out in the backwoods of Amarr space can dock at his station and "sell you tritanium" from there. You'll have to go pick the tritanium up, of course.

If you want the miner to haul the tritanium to Yulai before selling it to you, you must set up the order with a Station range; it'll still be visible, they can see that you're buying tritanium in Yulai, but they have to go there to sell it.

Now, as it's been said, no skills are required to specify the range if you're in the station and setting up a local order, and for remote buy orders, this is what Visibility skill affects.

So basically, heh, with Visibility, you can be sitting in the back woods and setting up a region-wide buy order in Yulai, so that the miner in the other back woods at the opposite end of the region can dump his tritanium out by where he is, and make YOU go all the way there to pick it up.

Ralitge boyter
Minmatar
DEFI4NT
Posted - 2005.08.04 13:15:00 - [21]
 

Great help this explains to me once more that all this trade business is not for me. Razz

Anyway it really is great and this should be up there stuck at the top of the board for a good while.

Savyor
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.08.05 19:28:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Savyor on 05/08/2005 19:29:56
Originally by: Mr Popov
Originally by: DethApostle
Marketing:...

Really what is the point?
Great I can sell stuff 5 jumps, 10jumps, hell anywhere in the region with this skill.
Goody...
But i still have to haul the stuff there to make any profit.

So when is it a useful skill?
Or have I totally missed the point of this? ugh


My home base is system X. I mine there regularly, have built up quite a stock on mineral A. Blast, mineral A is not selling for high enough, I am going to system Y to mine mineral B.

A week later I see that mineral A is selling for 10x it used to in system X, but I still want to stay in system Y to mine mineral B. Viola, procurement skill lets me sell the minerals without having to travel there.


Wait a minute! I am cornfused. Now, according to the OP's description, Procurement allows you to "set a Remote PURCHASE Order in another station". Sooooo, which is it? Does Procurement allow both buy and sell from/to another station? Or, does it just let me set up a buy order at a location other than where I am currently docked? I am guessing (if I understand correctly) that it is the last option.

What I want to know, in plain English...is if there is a skill that will let me be at one station, and sell an item directly to someone who has a buy order in another station for that same item (at their price)....and increase the distance away per level? A simple NO or YES - Skill Xxxxx would be preferred.

Thanx!

PS, great info from the OP. Very entertaining as well as informative post. Very Happy

Letouk Mernel
Posted - 2005.08.05 20:28:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Savyor
What I want to know, in plain English...is if there is a skill that will let me be at one station, and sell an item directly to someone who has a buy order in another station for that same item (at their price)....and increase the distance away per level? A simple NO or YES - Skill Xxxxx would be preferred.



Ok first of all, if you're in station A with the minerals, and someone puts up an order in station B, and they specify the range of the order to be "station only", that means they want the minerals delivered to that station before they buy, and there is no way to trick them into accepting your minerals in station A.

If, however, they set up a buy order with a range that reaches station A, you can sell them your minerals locally with no skill.

If you take your minerals from station A where you are to station B, and just leave them there, then return to station A, when the guy puts up the order in station B for minerals, you can right-click and sell from your Assets window, with the Marketing skill.

Savyor
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.08.09 18:04:00 - [24]
 

Ahh, that makes sense. Thanks Letouk!

I didn't realize it was all the sellers' fault...heh

Dreck Morrison
Amarr
No Quarter.
Vae Victis.
Posted - 2005.08.09 18:46:00 - [25]
 

Great guide.

Should add section on Daytrading costs to modify the orders (isk fee again to the dang broker). The guys who fight me by .01 isk increases back and forth love to pay that fee.

Modifying orders incur new brokerage fees and escrow charges if applicable. But there was a strange bug that when an order was modifyied it reset the timer before the order expired....think they fixed it recently though.

Dreck

Miss Lilly
Gallente
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2005.08.24 07:51:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Miss Lilly on 24/08/2005 07:51:39
This is awesome info, and I have one question concerning it:

Has anyone made a formula for the standings effect on the Broker Fee?

Cker Heel
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2005.08.24 17:01:00 - [27]
 

I've been trying to figure out the broker fee formula for a while. It does not appear to be a simple linear system, because if it were, I would get exact solutions to the system of equations.

Nevertheless, it resembles a linear system like this:
Base fee is 1%. Broker level 5 reduces it by 0.25%. The data so far suggests perfect faction standing can reduce it another 0.5% and perfect corp standing could reduce it another 0.25%.

My guess is the fee formula resembles this:
0.01 - (BrokerRelations*0.0005) - (FactionStanding *0.0005) - (CorpStanding*0.00025)

Unlike for 'we take' refining, these standings are ACTUAL standing, without the Connections bonus. You can't reduce the fee by training connection skill.

Herko Kerghans
Taleweaver
Posted - 2005.08.25 01:16:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Brej Donierik

So basically, heh, with Visibility, you can be sitting in the back woods and setting up a region-wide buy order in Yulai, so that the miner in the other back woods at the opposite end of the region can dump his tritanium out by where he is, and make YOU go all the way there to pick it up.


He he he... yes, it is true... although this falls into the "what to do with the skills" rather into "what do the skills do"... anyway, updated the guide with the tip.


Originally by: Savyor

Ahh, that makes sense. Thanks Letouk!

I didn't realize it was all the sellers' fault...heh


There is still hope for you son, don't give up on me!! Wink

Remember: our trade is not a press-F1-to-F25-and-whatch-thing-go-BOOM. Takes a bit more!



Quote:

This is awesome info, and I have one question concerning it:
Has anyone made a formula for the standings effect on the Broker Fee?



Not that I know of, sadly. If anybody knows please be sure to give me a holler. (It has to do with the station owner, that's for sure. I think, but I'm not sure, that it has to do with your total standing to the station owner, not his faction, but I may be wrong)

Gallentia Walmart
Posted - 2005.08.25 06:25:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Brej Donierik


So basically, heh, with Visibility, you can be sitting in the back woods and setting up a region-wide buy order in Yulai, so that the miner in the other back woods at the opposite end of the region can dump his tritanium out by where he is, and make YOU go all the way there to pick it up.


There's ways around that. Ways that mean that visibilty is actually a very profitable skill to have.

Grey Area
Caldari
Posted - 2005.08.25 11:01:00 - [30]
 

Procurement

I still don't get this skill.

From the decription, I thought that if I had it at level 5, I could be floating in my ship in space in Nonni, and decide (for some reason) that I am going to need a stock of Tritanium in Vuorrassi (some 7 or so jumps away). Thus I would be able to place my buy order, and the game would ask me "which system", then "which station", and then using the visibility as normal I could set it to station, meaning I would buy Tritanium only at a specific station in Vuorrassi, even though I was in Nonni.

However, when I use it, it only asks me to specify a specifc station in Nonni. That's why I always thought it was broken.

I've obviously got this COMPLETELY wrong, so again, please explain to this poor idiot what this skill ACTUALLY DOES! Embarassed


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