| Author |
Topic |
Ray McCormack
Kisoken Innovations |
Posted - 2007.04.25 22:12:00 - [ 1]
Moved from Market Discussion- Tirg So someone is selling your ideal ship, or a rare module you've always wanted for that perfect setup. But you're short on ISK currently, and would hate to let this opportunity slip you by. Well then let me introduce you to the new BMBE loan type. RIST : Reduced Interest, Short TermThe interest for a RIST loan is fixed at 1% daily. A RIST loan has to run for at least 1 day - There is no maximum run time. Each day interest is paid. To close the loan, the full amount needs to be paid. It is possible to re-finance the loan on a daily basis. How Does This Help Me?You no longer need to beg, borrow or steal in order to gather together enough ISK for that Auction or Contract, we'll help you afford your dreams today. You've identified a cheap Faction Ship, or Rare Module and would like the BMBE to assist you in purchasing it. The first thing to remember is the relative value of the item you want. Simply because you are willing to pay a certain price for something does not mean everyone else thinks it is worth that much. The BMBE will fund up to 80% of what 'we' think an item is worth (based on past sales performance). That means you will need to cover the rest, either using your own ISK OR any other items or modules you may have floating around. We will accept almost everything as collateral. This way you can employ dormant assets without having to liquidate them.So with the full payment for the item secured by means of ISK from the BMBE and collateral from yourself you can go ahead and get that Contract setup to your broker who will happily accept it on your behalf. With interest fixed at 1%, on a 1 billion ISK loan you will only be paying 10 million ISK per day until you can repay the full amount. And once we've received full payment, your shiny new toy will be handed over to you along with any collateral you had put forward. Overall InterestWith RIFL and RISP loans requiring a 4 week minimum term, it can actually work out cheaper to use a RIST loan, even though the weekly interest may appear much higher. If you can pay the loan off before 10 or 14 days (depending on current interest rates), it will work out better for you. Other ApplicationsThe BMBE doesn't limit itself to the high-end Ship and Module market, and will gladly assist you in your attempt to fund an array of items. From Capital Fleets to Tech I Blueprints, even the ISK-printing Tech II BPOs. www.BIG-EVE.com/BMBEBIG Merchant Bank of EVE |
Ricdic
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2007.04.25 23:30:00 - [ 2]
Ok first thing and most important.Is interest paid on the balance or the total loan amount? So if I recieved a 1 billion isk loan off you, does this mean no matter what every day I pay back 10 million isk, or let's say I pay 200m down the track, does this still mean I am paying 10m a day interest or would it drop down to 8m from thereonin.
Next, is this the big new BMBE change we were advised about? Come on man, a 30% interest loan that still requires FULL collateral, who in their right minds would do that, when they can run an IPO or sell bonds with 5-10% interest.
I think the biggest problem with BMBE is that they have to do ONE or the OTHER. Either make them high risk loans with high interest rates and stringent security rates. Or have them as low interest (10-18% on owing amount) but requiring full collateral. I dont see how it is fair having it both ways.
Now, you haven't mentioned whether or not this means every day I would have to log in and send you 10 million isk? If so, what happens if my sub expires for a few days, or I have to go away on business? Do you automatically take ownership of my valuable collateral + amount I have already paid + interest I have already paid?
I think it is quite steep regardless. I get say 1b off you to fund a navy raven and some fancy fittings. I have to place a t2 missile bpo with you as collateral. After month 1 I have spent the whole month working my ass off running missions, and have 300m to give you. I think, ok, this is 1/3 of the loan amount, and then find out that I have only paid interest, haven't paid a cent off the loan.
After only 3 months trying to get the funds up to get beyond the never-ending interest pit, i suddenly find that I could have done an "RE" and sourced the funds from the public, because suddenly that Navy Raven has cost me over 2 billion isk.
Finally, you put this into the market discussions forum, but give no mention to shareholders and ways they profit off this. Care to elaborate, or is the 50/50 setup still in play? |
Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Total Comfort |
Posted - 2007.04.26 02:21:00 - [ 3]
Edited by: Nyphur on 26/04/2007 02:20:31 Originally by: Ricdic
Next, is this the big new BMBE change we were advised about? Come on man, a 30% interest loan that still requires FULL collateral, who in their right minds would do that, when they can run an IPO or sell bonds with 5-10% interest.
Or take out a 10% loan with ISSO. With full collateral, 30% interest per month is unreasonable and I highly doubt a single person would be interested. Not to mention the fact that interest on these loans must apparantly be paid daily, meaning they must be micromanaged. This isn't anything new, the service is already availible and has been done much better in the past. The only thing BIG are doing, as far as I can see, is trying to catch the bottom end of the market - people who want loans for 1-2 days. EDIT: And ISSO only asked for 100% collateral AFAIK, this is off the big website: "You need to provide collateral in excess of the actual loan. The collateral is held by the BMBE until the loan has been repaid." |
Ray McCormack
Kisoken Innovations |
Posted - 2007.04.26 07:48:00 - [ 4]
Originally by: Ricdic
Ok first thing and most important.Is interest paid on the balance or the total loan amount?
It is on the loan amount, not the initial amount. You can refinance every day, lowering the interest you pay. Originally by: Ricdic
So if I recieved a 1 billion isk loan off you, does this mean no matter what every day I pay back 10 million isk, or let's say I pay 200m down the track, does this still mean I am paying 10m a day interest or would it drop down to 8m from thereonin.
Correct. Originally by: Ricdic
Next, is this the big new BMBE change we were advised about? Come on man, a 30% interest loan that still requires FULL collateral, who in their right minds would do that, when they can run an IPO or sell bonds with 5-10% interest.
It is the first in a series of changes. And while it may have a 30% effective monthly interest, the beauty is in that it doesn't cost you that much overall (see my note on Overall Interest above). Originally by: Ricdic
I think the biggest problem with BMBE is that they have to do ONE or the OTHER. Either make them high risk loans with high interest rates and stringent security rates. Or have them as low interest (10-18% on owing amount) but requiring full collateral. I dont see how it is fair having it both ways.
We have two loan types that only charge interest on the outstanding amount, and one that doesn't. RIST loans can be refinanced everyday, and you only pay interest on what is outstanding. RISP loans can be refinanced every 4 weeks, and you only pay interest on what is outstanding. The stringent security rates are there to protect our shareholder's ISK. Originally by: Ricdic
Now, you haven't mentioned whether or not this means every day I would have to log in and send you 10 million isk? If so, what happens if my sub expires for a few days, or I have to go away on business? Do you automatically take ownership of my valuable collateral + amount I have already paid + interest I have already paid?
How you repay the loan is up to yourself. We ask that it is either paid on time or in advance. But we can take things on a case by case basis. We're not here to lay claim to your valuable collateral, it's in our best interest to have the loan repaid. I introduced this loan type as I felt there was a market for extremely short-term loans, where people would be able to repay the loan within one or two days. And 10 or 20 million ISK isn't a lot to pay tomorrow to get your hands on a billion today. Originally by: Ricdic
I think it is quite steep regardless. I get say 1b off you to fund a navy raven and some fancy fittings. I have to place a t2 missile bpo with you as collateral. After month 1 I have spent the whole month working my ass off running missions, and have 300m to give you. I think, ok, this is 1/3 of the loan amount, and then find out that I have only paid interest, haven't paid a cent off the loan.
Why would you take out a RIST loan for more than 2 weeks? I would simply advise you to take out a RISP loan in the above case. The idea is that you need 1b for the Navy Raven today as you don't have that ISK to hand but can repay it within 2 weeks, effectively paying 140m in interest if you don't refinance at some point. Originally by: Ricdic
After only 3 months trying to get the funds up to get beyond the never-ending interest pit, i suddenly find that I could have done an "RE" and sourced the funds from the public, because suddenly that Navy Raven has cost me over 2 billion isk.
This is a Short Term loan, I would advise against taking it if you couldn't repay it within 10 to 14 days. Originally by: Ricdic
Finally, you put this into the market discussions forum, but give no mention to shareholders and ways they profit off this. Care to elaborate, or is the 50/50 setup still in play?
This is a plug for a new loan type, much like my plug, 'How To Afford a Tech II BPO', for the previous loan types. |
Ray McCormack
Kisoken Innovations |
Posted - 2007.04.26 07:56:00 - [ 5]
Originally by: Nyphur
Or take out a 10% loan with ISSO. With full collateral, 30% interest per month is unreasonable and I highly doubt a single person would be interested. Not to mention the fact that interest on these loans must apparantly be paid daily, meaning they must be micromanaged.
You need to think of it more along the lines of 1% per day. This is a Short Term loan, and I would advise against people taking it out for more than 10 to 14 days. Interest must be paid daily, but seeing as the loan isn't intended to last long I'm don't see that being an issue. Originally by: Nyphur
This isn't anything new, the service is already availible and has been done much better in the past.
How is this currently available, and how was it done better in the past? Originally by: Nyphur
The only thing BIG are doing, as far as I can see, is trying to catch the bottom end of the market - people who want loans for 1-2 days.
Correct, that is what the BMBE is trying to do. Originally by: Nyphur
EDIT: And ISSO only asked for 100% collateral AFAIK, this is off the big website:
"You need to provide collateral in excess of the actual loan. The collateral is held by the BMBE until the loan has been repaid."
While we may ask for a little extra collateral (around 20% most of the time), the beauty is that you can use most ingame items for this. So any idle ships or modules you've got lying around clogging up your asset list can by used. |
Heikki
Gallente
Wreckless Abandon
|
Posted - 2007.04.26 11:40:00 - [ 6]
Originally by: Ricdic
quite steep regardless
That is typical for short term loans; and gets feasible only when you can't loan such sum from your friends/mates. For example in real life Quick-SMS-loans have become popular among youngs folks. Like you get 100 euros for 2 weeks; but have to pay back 125 euros. Yearly (cumulative?) interest would be 1.25*(52/2) = 33000%. If calculated equally, BMBE would have only 1.01^365 = 3778% (the ratio doesn't change drastically even if you compared with daily paid interest). And though in RL those loan types are associated with high risks, RL banks have very low inflation to deal with. Or in other words; it's steep only when you can point to someone else offering similar product for cheaper rates. Originally by: Ricdic
give no mention to shareholders and ways they profit off
Reckon the intended audience are potential customers; not sure if cluttering the message with such (semi-obvious) info would help. -Lasse |
Ricdic
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2007.04.26 12:30:00 - [ 7]
Thanks for the clarification Ray, I didn't realise you were still offering the other types of loans, and that this one was focusing on a target market in demand of short term loans. As Nyphur did, I was looking at the long term costs involved.
But you didn't answer this correctly (maybe i worded it wrong). Your initial post seems to indicate that the interest needs paying daily (ie I understand it is calculated daily, but am confirming that interest doesn't require daily payments. So would I need to log in every day and pay the 1% interest payable? Nyphur's post also addresses this issue.
Thanks Ray |
Ray McCormack
Kisoken Innovations |
Posted - 2007.04.26 12:46:00 - [ 8]
Originally by: Ricdic
I didn't realise you were still offering the other types of loans
Heh, no, we're still doing the other loan types. Switching to this type alone would be market suicide, so I can see where your consternation came from now. Originally by: Ricdic
So would I need to log in every day and pay the 1% interest payable?
You would need to, yes, barring any prior agreement with us. While it may seem like micromanaging, due to the short term nature of the loans I don't see it being an issue. |
Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Total Comfort |
Posted - 2007.04.26 13:07:00 - [ 9]
Edited by: Nyphur on 26/04/2007 13:06:16Edited by: Nyphur on 26/04/2007 13:03:38 Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: Nyphur
This isn't anything new, the service is already availible and has been done much better in the past.
How is this currently available, and how was it done better in the past?
Ignoring EIB, which allegedly started out legitimately and then turned into a scam when the organiser found their price, I'm referring to ISSO's loans. While not as short-term as 1-2 days, they offer superior rates of interest to the point where you may be better off taking out a 5-10% 1-month loan on 100% collateral from them than taking out a 1% daily 5-10 day loan on 120% collateral with you. Which is pretty much what you just said, I guess. You advise people not to take out loans over 10 days. I'm sure someone will find it useful, but I couldn't see a situation where I would take a loan for under 10 days. At 10 days, a standard monthly loan from elsewhere would be better. Additionally, I don't believe the idea of collateral for loans actually works properly in eve because practically nobody has anything unique and valuable. The kind of items people will be using for collateral would be, as you said, assets that were clogging up their assets window. Those assets are entirely generic and can almost always be sold and then replaced later for about the same cost, perhaps a few percent higher. There IS some merit to the idea of using random guff as collateral, though, since it can be contracted at a large distance. I could contract you some domination mods and a megathron out in 0.0 that I'm not using, I assume, and take out a loan on them. That would be handy, I will admit. Also, rigged ships can be sent as collateral and returned in tact while they can not be easily liquidated for full value with the rigs in tact. The only things I can think of that would make REALLY good collateral for a loan would be rare things like officer modules, which are often hard to value, or a T2 bpo, which nobody in their right mind would be accepting as collateral right now since the prices are dropping. |
Ricdic
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2007.04.26 13:27:00 - [ 10]
Yeh i find when I need short-term loans with collateral, my trusty obelisk is great for the job. I rarely use it, so have no inconvenience during the period. Having said that, of late when I have needed a boost up, generally people don't ask for collateral.
I assume BMBE don't care if you are a 10 day old noob corp alt, or a 3 year old veteran holding billions of public isk, they will still demand the exact amount of collateral?
Or that credit rating has no affect on BMBE customers, be it in the form of reduced rates, or less stringent collateral requirements? I understand BMBE needs to cover their butts for the shareholders, but a loyal customer (not me, using example) would surely like to see that loyalty extended both ways. Or would you just handle these kinds of situations on a case by case basis? |
Ray McCormack
Kisoken Innovations |
Posted - 2007.04.26 13:38:00 - [ 11]
Originally by: Nyphur
I could contract you some domination mods and a megathron out in 0.0 that I'm not using, I assume, and take out a loan on them.
Correct. Originally by: Nyphur
The only things I can think of that would make REALLY good collateral for a loan would be rare things like officer modules, which are often hard to value
We usually reach an agreement based on past sales and current contracts. Originally by: Nyphur
or a T2 bpo, which nobody in their right mind would be accepting as collateral right now since the prices are dropping.
The BMBE still accepts T2 BPOs as collateral, but doesn't find as much value in them as people would probably like. |
Ray McCormack
Kisoken Innovations |
Posted - 2007.04.26 13:54:00 - [ 12]
Originally by: Ricdic
I assume BMBE don't care if you are a 10 day old noob corp alt, or a 3 year old veteran holding billions of public isk, they will still demand the exact amount of collateral?
We will yes. We're in the business of secured loans, and need to ensure that our shareholders ISK is safe at all time. Originally by: Ricdic
Or that credit rating has no affect on BMBE customers, be it in the form of reduced rates, or less stringent collateral requirements? I understand BMBE needs to cover their butts for the shareholders, but a loyal customer (not me, using example) would surely like to see that loyalty extended both ways. Or would you just handle these kinds of situations on a case by case basis?
While we may just be in the business of secured loans, there's also an interface occuring between two people to establish the loan. And this is something I take to heart. My time is your time, and I will gladly chat through every conceivable angle. And loyalty speaks volumes, however there are certain requirements (such as collateral) which cannot be avoided. Other issues are free for discussion on an idividual basis. |
Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Total Comfort |
Posted - 2007.04.27 04:22:00 - [ 13]
Ray, your discussion thread has gone walkies. |
Ray McCormack
Kisoken Innovations |
Posted - 2007.04.27 10:26:00 - [ 14]
Originally by: Nyphur
Ray, your discussion thread has gone walkies.
Yeah, it got moved to Sell Orders. I was hoping for General Discussion. But maybe this means I can bump it more often? ;-) |
Ray McCormack
Kisoken Innovations |
Posted - 2007.04.28 22:33:00 - [ 15]
And unfortunately this discussion thread seems set to stay in the Sell Order forums.
|
Ray McCormack
Kisoken Innovations |
Posted - 2007.05.06 22:50:00 - [ 16]
We still offer our other loan types, and will gladly accept almost anything as collateral.
|
Ray McCormack
Kisoken Innovations |
Posted - 2007.06.04 18:43:00 - [ 17]
This is the perfect way to afford that expensive Faction Mod without having to liquidise any assets.
|
Ray McCormack
Kisoken Innovations |
Posted - 2007.06.09 19:15:00 - [ 18]
Still plenty of ISK available if you're finding yourself a little short.
|
Ray McCormack
Kisoken Innovations |
Posted - 2007.06.12 22:15:00 - [ 19]
Loans available here.
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Dreadpilot Roberts
Amok.
Minor Threat. |
Posted - 2007.06.12 22:29:00 - [ 20]
Interest rates tooo high for such a collateral and no guarantee of your payments back if collateral is seized. To the reader  Do you need ISK that bad. Do you have even a bit of capital to set aside as collateral ? You have a mod worth what you want to borrow ? Then sell it !!!! Get rid of it. And start trading. It is the easiest way to make the ISK that you need. With just a 1 billion ISK budget you can start making 500 mil ISK per week or even more. Before you know it you'll be a multi-billionaire and loan ISK to BIG. Smarten up and do the right thing ... extra details in-game :)  Consider it a free bump there McCormack |
Ray McCormack
Kisoken Innovations |
Posted - 2007.06.14 17:02:00 - [ 21]
Contrary to the above poster's belief this is actually a great way to unlock the ISK in your dormant assets without having to sell them. And we have other loan options that spread the interest over weekly payments.
But thanks for the blatant troll without any actual basis or facts.
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