| Author |
Topic |
Ifni
Deep Core Mining Inc. |
Posted - 2007.07.22 12:34:00 - [ 61]
Edited by: Ifni on 22/07/2007 12:34:24 Originally by: Pilk
Originally by: Ifni
Did you pull that value from thin air? Or have you done a poll on each and every potential buyer for the Corvus/Storm?
Rumors of their sale price puts them at about 75b apiece, and that was before we knew they wouldn't be re-issued for this tournament. As such, BoB, with 5 ships remaining, currently holds 375b in ships and 150b in isk as a result of the last tournament, based on old numbers. You don't think the fact that these ships won't be given out again would effect at least a 25% increase in their per-unit value?
So that's a yes then; you have pulled the number from thin air. You're sensationalising for the sake of your argument. Sure, their value stands a good chance of increasing, but then with a larger player base and thus increased demand, that would have happened anyway. By insinuating that the choice of prizes is deliberately set to increase the value of BOB's prizes is pretty underhand. I would go as far to say you're playing on peoples irrational fear of the BOB/CCP relationship through such high profile events as the T20 bpo fiasco. So, for the sake of argument, forget the increased value of the Corvus and Storm. CCP has said that they made a mistake allowing ships of such rarity into the game in such a quantity to one ingame entity. It started a flow of isk from Entity's wallet, to the tune of 150b, straight into BOB's allowing for what? 3 titans? 4 titans? to be built. Thats a pretty hefty game altering amount of isk. And so they have taken the current stance. It is obviously not what people want, since almost everyone, including yourself, appears to want their bit of the pimp pie. Hence the rage about the prizes. |
Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance |
Posted - 2007.07.22 14:13:00 - [ 62]
There is a difference between "half a trillion isk prize money" (rough estimate of last tourney's total) and "almost nothing" (with the exception of the LP, which has a sudo cash value, the rest has no appreciable in-game value to me personally).
A zero value prize does nothing but increase the gap between the big alliances and the small ones. BoB and similar sized alliances can still throw massive billions at the tournament, seeing as it's still only a fraction of their total wealth. A small alliance, on the other hand, has very limited assets. How much do you think they're going to throw in to the tournament if they know there isn't ever a possibility of it being paid back?
It'll just mean that smaller entities will be much less able or likely to attempt to compete with BoB and the other super alliances. And lets face it- they were struggling to keep up with them already... |
DJTheBaron
Caldari
FinFleet
KenZoku |
Posted - 2007.07.22 17:17:00 - [ 63]
Ladies, Gentlemen, and the children among you.
This tournament is not about isk, those of you who participated in last year’s tournament in cruisers just to get the prize at the end, wasted all of our time.
This tournament is about alliance pride, in defeating your opposition and carving out a reputation for your alliance as a formidable force, or the alliance that no other alliance could defeat. It is purely about respect, and having fun by gaining or loosing it. Yes we play a game where risking assets should always involve reward, but at the end of the day, we play a game, if your style of gameplay does not confirm with using assets, human resources, cunning and skill to defeat your opponents, why do you play online?
Get back to the topic at hand, the alliance tournament, with more focus on tournament than alliance, as alliances already have their own forums for you to soil with your bitterness.
FATAL Alliance looks forward to meeting you on in the arena. |
Pilk
Evolution
IT Alliance |
Posted - 2007.07.22 18:05:00 - [ 64]
Originally by: Ifni
Edited by: Ifni on 22/07/2007 12:34:24
Originally by: Pilk
Originally by: Ifni
Did you pull that value from thin air? Or have you done a poll on each and every potential buyer for the Corvus/Storm?
Rumors of their sale price puts them at about 75b apiece, and that was before we knew they wouldn't be re-issued for this tournament. As such, BoB, with 5 ships remaining, currently holds 375b in ships and 150b in isk as a result of the last tournament, based on old numbers. You don't think the fact that these ships won't be given out again would effect at least a 25% increase in their per-unit value?
So that's a yes then; you have pulled the number from thin air. You're sensationalising for the sake of your argument. Sure, their value stands a good chance of increasing, but then with a larger player base and thus increased demand, that would have happened anyway. By insinuating that the choice of prizes is deliberately set to increase the value of BOB's prizes is pretty underhand. I would go as far to say you're playing on peoples irrational fear of the BOB/CCP relationship through such high profile events as the T20 bpo fiasco.
So, for the sake of argument, forget the increased value of the Corvus and Storm. CCP has said that they made a mistake allowing ships of such rarity into the game in such a quantity to one ingame entity. It started a flow of isk from Entity's wallet, to the tune of 150b, straight into BOB's allowing for what? 3 titans? 4 titans? to be built.
Thats a pretty hefty game altering amount of isk. And so they have taken the current stance. It is obviously not what people want, since almost everyone, including yourself, appears to want their bit of the pimp pie. Hence the rage about the prizes.
Well, of course. Anybody claiming pure altruism in this game--or, at the very least, on these forums--clearly has deeper motives. I want a shot at a Corvus, too, damn it. I've been forsaking much-more-important training for well over half a year now in preparation for this event. But I've been saying ever since the original prizes were announced--in Eris' devblog, you can go look there, if you like--that an isk prize is bull****, and that the right answer was to release more Corvuses, Storms, etc. If you look through my history on this and other matters, I think you'll recognize that I've been pretty level-headed all along. I didn't even resort to big, bold text now that it's been, what, three months?, and still no response from Nova or Eris on the fact that these prizes serve only to inflate the previous winners' wallets. And then I saw Nova say that the reason the prizes for this tournament sucked were because the last tournament's prizes were too good. Then, yes, I lost it and wrote in big, bold text. And emailed a link to Kieron. Because, dammit, someone needs to step in and realize what's going on here. At the end of the day, any reward you give is going to be worth isk, even if it's as abstract as drawing recruits and thus increasing your corporation's tax base. So rather than make me sit in the LP store for five hours banging the "faction battleship BPC" button after the tournament, why not give me what I really want? If you do it right, it's worth about the same as the LP's, and it also doubles as a solution to the problem of the magnitude of the prizes given out last year. Nitpick my motives or my numbers all you want, at the end of the day, even the second place winner from last tournament walked away with almost 100b isk (remember, those ships were fully-fitted with Empire faction gear, too). I present a solution to both problems--having given away too much at the last tournament, and giving a prize that excites nobody in this one. Do with it what you will. --P |
Ituralde
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle |
Posted - 2007.07.22 19:57:00 - [ 65]
I am still among the crowd that says that it isn't ISK or prized that draws us to the tourney.
It's a shot to kick some ass publicly and get people to think of your name with a bit of "Huh, I remember ________ Alliance, they kicked some serious ass in that last alliance tourney".
I can think of many names in that tourney that fit this ticket.
Nebula Rasa
Ronin
Cult of War
Omniscient Order
Tyrrax, for having the stones to deploy the Impoc.
The list does go on. When push comes to shove in EVE, that is where the real gain is. Think about it, I bet most of you had not heard of at least one of the teams that did well in the previous tourney until that point where on EVE-TV they made a name for themselves.
Oh, and one question - is EVE-TV going to be free for the tourney or are we going to have to spend money on that, too? |
Pilk
Evolution
IT Alliance |
Posted - 2007.07.22 20:03:00 - [ 66]
EveTV is free for the tournament.
And it's fine to say, "Fight for the honor, not for the prizes." But it's not okay to put that alongside the statement, "The last tournament's prizes were too large," when this tournament provides a concrete, reasonable, and RP-fulfilling way to counteract the stated problem.
--P |
QwaarJet
Gallente
hirr
Morsus Mihi |
Posted - 2007.07.23 02:56:00 - [ 67]
Originally by: Ituralde
I am still among the crowd that says that it isn't ISK or prized that draws us to the tourney.
It's a shot to kick some ass publicly and get people to think of your name with a bit of "Huh, I remember ________ Alliance, they kicked some serious ass in that last alliance tourney".
I can think of many names in that tourney that fit this ticket.
Nebula Rasa
Ronin
Cult of War
Omniscient Order
Tyrrax, for having the stones to deploy the Impoc.
The list does go on. When push comes to shove in EVE, that is where the real gain is. Think about it, I bet most of you had not heard of at least one of the teams that did well in the previous tourney until that point where on EVE-TV they made a name for themselves.
Oh, and one question - is EVE-TV going to be free for the tourney or are we going to have to spend money on that, too?
We kicked Nebula Rasa's behind in the alst tourney, but that's another story. I know the rep gain is the most important thing. Hell, most of rep is built off the last 2 tournaments i've been in, but the Prizes need to be good enough so that the big alliances have something worthwhile to fight over, so we really get the BEST fighters in the tourney. As many alliances have withdrawn already, i'm not sure how much rep you'll gain for winning a tournament that no one of worth took part in. |
Nyack
GREY COUNCIL
Gentlemen's Club |
Posted - 2007.07.23 09:01:00 - [ 68]
so u are goign to reward a PVP-TOURNAMENT with mission rewards...
yes i bet the thousands and thousands of 1337 pvp:ers really really want standing and LP...
i mean pvp:ers loves to hear that they are mission *****s..
why not implement state of the art DNA modification so the champions gets their character permantly altered.. maybe something like a permanent hardwiring or attribute enhancement.
or a combo of RL and ingame rewards i mean sports stars and E-sport stars gets RL rewards and cash for their achievements why shouldnt EVE stars be treated the same way after all CCP makes tons of cash why shouldnt our stars get soem piece of it?.. maybe a VIP trip to Iceland to see the ccp studio.
these things wont alter the ingame balance.. sure it might hit the ccp wallet harder but damn in teh long run inbalance in teh game hits your wallets aswell.. |
Nyack
GREY COUNCIL
Gentlemen's Club |
Posted - 2007.07.23 09:19:00 - [ 69]
another idea that is in teh glory and fame category..
why not make a new faction item or ship named after the team leader in the winning team.
for example last tourny.
TWD's modified skirmish warfare mindlink
then give the winning alliance for example 40 of these or somethign then added that item to the LP store of the faction they compete for.. that way the whole alliance will benefit from it, if it is a gang module or implant. it doesnt need to be an uber mod it is more the naming of teh mod thats the point. and everyone will be able to get the item from lp store so no inbalance
just thinking out loud.. |
R3dSh1ft
Dark Knights of Deneb
Against ALL Authorities |
Posted - 2007.07.23 09:47:00 - [ 70]
Yes its about glory and such - but what gave the last tournament its drama and appeal (when teams turned up at least) ?
The fact that so many people were willing to put so much on the line and invest so much time and effort to win the tourney. Now why do you suppose that was? Why do you suppose anybody would care about a 'synthetic' event occuring in Polaris space that has absolutely no effect on the rest of the game whatsoever? Oh wait - because it DID...
Can't have it both ways - huge prizes gives a great show, drama, tension, surprises. Crappy prize = crappy show. |
Neo Providence |
Posted - 2007.07.23 14:37:00 - [ 71]
well, i guess this is the downfall of eve. CCp can't think of anything else that would be worth while as prizes for the tourney. But i guess the LP would be worth it if it is given to any corp we wanted. I mean i wouldn't mind having them transfer to my minny corp. I would get my fraction bs so fast i would just die. lol  |
Ituralde
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle |
Posted - 2007.07.23 17:18:00 - [ 72]
Originally by: Pilk
EveTV is free for the tournament.
And it's fine to say, "Fight for the honor, not for the prizes." But it's not okay to put that alongside the statement, "The last tournament's prizes were too large," when this tournament provides a concrete, reasonable, and RP-fulfilling way to counteract the stated problem.
--P
Valid point, though if you think about it for those who are interested in prizes, at the very least: ~500k lp for a 500-1bil ISK faction BS. Say 500 mil to be VERY conservative - there are implant offers that give more ISK/LP than this anyhow. That means at the very least 20bil worth of rewards to the top team. More likely, you are looking at 40-60 billion if using the right offers. Granted, it's still not as much as what the battleships went for, but it's still nothing to sneeze at. I honestly don't see what the issue is. |
Pilk
Evolution
IT Alliance |
Posted - 2007.07.23 19:08:00 - [ 73]
Originally by: Ituralde
Originally by: Pilk
EveTV is free for the tournament.
And it's fine to say, "Fight for the honor, not for the prizes." But it's not okay to put that alongside the statement, "The last tournament's prizes were too large," when this tournament provides a concrete, reasonable, and RP-fulfilling way to counteract the stated problem.
--P
Valid point, though if you think about it for those who are interested in prizes, at the very least:
~500k lp for a 500-1bil ISK faction BS. Say 500 mil to be VERY conservative - there are implant offers that give more ISK/LP than this anyhow.
That means at the very least 20bil worth of rewards to the top team.
More likely, you are looking at 40-60 billion if using the right offers. Granted, it's still not as much as what the battleships went for, but it's still nothing to sneeze at.
I honestly don't see what the issue is.
40 of one faction BS appearing on the market would drive the price down considerably. Regardless, though, the point is that they've got a perfectly good market-centric approach to correcting their past mistake AND making a large number of tournament participants very happy, and instead they're giving us... LP's. Which, at the end of the day, most teams view as little more than a first-order derivative of isk (albeit, economically-speaking, more stable than simply injecting a bunch of isk into the game). --P |
Mitchman
Omniscient Order
|
Posted - 2007.07.24 06:01:00 - [ 74]
It seems to me that the way points will get you the top 2 spots, we will see teams that have no chance to go on to the next round simply fold (like come in frigates or something) and be slaughtered, where the winners then get a 50% bonus and have an extra advantage. I'm pretty sure this will actually change the outcome of some groups, and it doesn't seem right.
|
ookke
GreenSwarm
|
Posted - 2007.07.24 10:27:00 - [ 75]
Originally by: Mitchman
It seems to me that the way points will get you the top 2 spots, we will see teams that have no chance to go on to the next round simply fold (like come in frigates or something) and be slaughtered, where the winners then get a 50% bonus and have an extra advantage. I'm pretty sure this will actually change the outcome of some groups, and it doesn't seem right.
There is a rule that says you have to field a minimum of 75 points anyway, and without rigs and cosmos I don't see a reason why people wouldn't put up a proper fight till the bitter end :) If people want to be lame or just manipulate brackets there isn't much you can do about it anyway, even with 3p/1p/0p scoring a 6-0 intentionally forfeited match can change it(see IAC @ second tourney, even tho it kind of failed :p) |
Xaeon
Invicta.
|
Posted - 2007.07.26 15:36:00 - [ 76]
Should be interesting  |
BluOrange
Gallente
The OZ Hunters and Mercenary Association
Black Scope Project |
Posted - 2007.07.27 11:37:00 - [ 77]
Originally by: Pilk
And it's fine to say, "Fight for the honor, not for the prizes." But it's not okay to put that alongside the statement, "The last tournament's prizes were too large," when this tournament provides a concrete, reasonable, and RP-fulfilling way to counteract the stated problem.
--P
/signed. However, the rules are final now, and as much as I would like them to be different, the only thing we can do now is to sign up, or not sign up. Personally, the process of watching the communications from players and the lack of response from organizers has been extremely frustrating, and has drained most of my motivation. |
Bruno Bonner
Gallente
Lutin Group
|
Posted - 2007.07.27 17:10:00 - [ 78]
You know, being a RPer myself and seeing how the tournament rules changed to provide variation and crazy tactics i can say only one thing.
Each of the factions should give regular faction ships if you champion for them rather than just LP.
A set (3 of each?) of Navy Mega, Navy Vexor and Navy Comet for gallente
A set of Hobkill, Navy Caracal and Navy Raven...
and so on.
At least those ships are valuable, can be used in PvP and constitute an acceptable reward for both PvPers and PvErs....however the very Unique ships that everyone wishes to have could be awarded to MVPs of each faction, someone who did the most points while championing for their empires. So CCP don't give away 400 gazillion and make it unbalanced.
One silver magnate?
One Guardian-Vexor?
One Imperial Apoc?
just three categories and elected by point system (most damage done, most assists, etc, etc).
regards
Bruno |
Zaethiel
D00M.
Triumvirate. |
Posted - 2007.07.27 20:09:00 - [ 79]
Originally by: Bruno Bonner
You know, being a RPer myself and seeing how the tournament rules changed to provide variation and crazy tactics i can say only one thing.
Each of the factions should give regular faction ships if you champion for them rather than just LP.
A set (3 of each?) of Navy Mega, Navy Vexor and Navy Comet for gallente
A set of Hobkill, Navy Caracal and Navy Raven...
and so on.
At least those ships are valuable, can be used in PvP and constitute an acceptable reward for both PvPers and PvErs....however the very Unique ships that everyone wishes to have could be awarded to MVPs of each faction, someone who did the most points while championing for their empires. So CCP don't give away 400 gazillion and make it unbalanced.
One silver magnate?
One Guardian-Vexor?
One Imperial Apoc?
just three categories and elected by point system (most damage done, most assists, etc, etc).
regards
Bruno
I kinda like the idea of getting LP + a Faction BS, Cruiser, and frig for First followed by Second getting a Faction BS + LP and Third getting LP and a faction Frig |
Vek Sleqis
Minmatar
Republic Military School |
Posted - 2007.07.27 20:10:00 - [ 80]
Overall good job but.... Change the damn prizes for christs sake  The proposed prizes are totally uninspiring and bear no resembalance to last years in monetary (isk) terms. It would be such a shame to see 'THE' main in game event in Eve be spoilt by crappy prizes that are inappropriate for PvP tournament, Listen to the people CCP... |
illusionary beauty
I-Tyranny
|
Posted - 2007.07.28 12:52:00 - [ 81]
Edited by: illusionary beauty on 28/07/2007 12:52:56 Originally by: Vek Sleqis
Overall good job but....
Change the damn prizes for christs sake The proposed prizes are totally uninspiring and bear no resembalance to last years in monetary (isk) terms. It would be such a shame to see 'THE' main in game event in Eve be spoilt by crappy prizes that are inappropriate for PvP tournament,
Listen to the people CCP...
They could always give out real prizes too. Years Subscription to Eve RL Money? |
Anator Namon |
Posted - 2007.07.31 20:36:00 - [ 82]
Edited by: Anator Namon on 31/07/2007 23:08:00
Edited by: Anator Namon on 31/07/2007 20:39:01
Since they are focusing on the effect of alliances, why not this:
Can choose to champion a faction (the standings reward for the alliance).
Can choose (a possibly seperate faction) to construct faction capital ships (mothership worth 3 points, carrier and dread each other 1 point) (first place gets 3 points, second gets 2 points, third gets 1 point). These will be standard faction ships... not super ships (think navyapoc or the like, not the corvus). Also, just having 1-3 ships means that the alliance won't be likely to sell them, for one case players wouldn't be able to afford them!
Also, this will add faction capitals to the game, which would be cool.
(added: Well, pirate faction carriers and mothership might not make sense, but at the least pirate dreadnaughts of the Nightmare and Rattlesnake lines do. One of the Mach line might be too good, while there would have to be modifications for the vindicator and bhaalgorn lines (+50% per level web range might be cool, but even +50% per level nos effect wouldn't be a very good use for a dreadnaught). The empire ships would be a lot easier to do, since it would just be adding a bit of fitting and 1 med or low slot.) |
Weeka
GET A JOB |
Posted - 2007.08.01 12:50:00 - [ 83]
Originally by: Anator Namon
Also, this will add faction capitals to the game, which would be cool.
Quite as cool as training amarr dreadnought as well as minmatar dreadnought, along with amarr BS V and minmatar BS V Next.  |
Anator Namon |
Posted - 2007.08.01 16:26:00 - [ 84]
Edited by: Anator Namon on 01/08/2007 16:34:27
You know that someone does.. and that people dream of such a ship.
Also, there will be a much much more limited subset of people who can afford the price and have the skills, so the ships will be less like money and more like a status symbol.
Actually, might as well leave the LP reward in, but add faction capital BPCs in to the LP rewards store. I mean, a dread is like 10x the cost of a BS, so make it so that the BPC for a dread is 8m LP + 1b ISK.
I mean, in Battleship, Cruiser, and Frigate combat there is the allowance for style. Capital combat is well developed (with blobs of capitals being seen), yet no style is allowed.
I mean, who wouldn't want a Navy Revelation? |
ElCoCo
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance |
Posted - 2007.08.01 20:26:00 - [ 85]
|
Trevedian
Amarr
Shaolin Monks
|
Posted - 2007.08.02 14:53:00 - [ 86]
Why was this thread unstickied?
The Rules should be easily accessible if you want people to participate.
|
GM Nova
 |
Posted - 2007.08.03 13:30:00 - [ 87]
Originally by: Trevedian
Why was this thread unstickied?
The Rules should be easily accessible if you want people to participate.
Stickied again. |
Peri Stark
Gallente
Blood Covenant
Pandemic Legion |
Posted - 2007.08.05 09:54:00 - [ 88]
I liked the idea that if you stuck it out and fought all your fights you got some prize or recognition. With the event set up this way unless you think you have a shot at being in the top 3 then why bother? |
Nubiam
Caldari
Celestris Exogeology
|
Posted - 2007.08.05 17:59:00 - [ 89]
Will the changes for Nos and Khanid be in place for the tournament or is this being fought under "current" build?
N- |
GM Nova
|
Posted - 2007.08.05 21:01:00 - [ 90]
Originally by: Nubiam
Will the changes for Nos and Khanid be in place for the tournament or is this being fought under "current" build?
N-
Revelations 2.2 will be deployed a few days before the event so yes, the nos changes and Khanid will be in place. |
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