| Author |
Topic |
Rufati |
Posted - 2008.01.25 08:29:00 - [ 1]
So I've been playing EVE for a short while now after having played many other RPGs before it, and I can see how the skill system it features is both better and worse than other candidates. It's nice to be able to level something up without physically working hard towards it, but then certain skills can take inordinate amounts of time to level, and if you forget to start training a new skill after another has completed - that is wasted time. And time is a lot more valuable in EVE than in other games.
How the current system works is that any given skill has a primary and secondary stat that affect it's skill point gain per hour. I don't know the formulas for this, so to help me explain I'll just whip up an example.
Let's say with all attributes at 10, and that each attribute will afford a skill that many skill points per hour. So 10 each. Primary skill gets a bonus, let's say 2x. So any skill will be granted 30sp an hour with this imaginary set up. The only ways to improve the situation right now is to either allow skills to be queued and learned in succession, or to allow multiple skills that require different attributes to run simultaneously (like a learning skill that requires mem/int, and a spaceship skill that requires will/perc at the same time). The idea that I want to propose works fundamentally the same as it does now, only with zero downtime.
Instead of having to learn a skill, let your attributes be earning skill points for themselves constantly throughout your EVE life. Using the above example, you get 10 of each attributes skill point per hour. Intelligence sp, memory sp, and so on. And so to learn a skill requires to have X amount of the primary attribute's skill points, and Y amount of the secondary. So you are effectively 'buying' skills instantaneously after having accrued the 'currency' to 'buy' them over a period of time (just like the current learning system, only different.
So there would not be a need for skill queuing. If I had to leave the game for any amount of time, for any reason, I would come back knowing that I didn't lose any progress, and that I could just use up the skill points that had accrued. It's just that at the moment it seems odd for the game to tout this skill system as alleviating the grinds and time lost in other games, yet if you don't have access to the game for any length of time you are falling behind.
The implementation of this idea doesn't seem too difficult either. Developers will more than likely have access to the formulas for determining skill point gain, and all that needs to be done is to stop dumping them into a skill and instead into some kind of character skill point bank. Then split the skill points needed for each skill into it's primary and secondary skill point requirements.
It might change the way things work ever so slightly, but it's fundamentally the same. It doesn't open any loopholes either. And it effectively combines skill queuing and dual-skill-learning.
That and I thought it was good enough to at least expose the idea to you guys, and let a discussion happen =D
(I apologise if this thread has been double posted, it just didn't appear after the first time... o_o) |
Kerfira |
Posted - 2008.01.25 10:17:00 - [ 2]
Edited by: Kerfira on 25/01/2008 10:18:10And thus you'll completely bypass the reason the skill point system is as it is.... The skill point system requires you to log in because CCP wants people to PLAY, and to make character farming harder! With your solution in place: "Create account" "Log in, start accumulating points" ....6-12 months later..... "Log in, distribute points as FOTM dictates" "Sell account" Bad, bad, BAD idea!  |
Arcayan |
Posted - 2008.01.25 10:41:00 - [ 3]
Skills are uploaded into your brain via neural interfacing. This process takes a certain amount of time, dependant on your personal attributes and the level of complexity of the skill in question.
The system you are proposing simply doesn't fit with the story.
Calculating skill points is done as such: Skill points per hour = (primary skill + (secondary skill / 2)) * 60
To get correct results, you need to calculate the value of each attribute as such: Actual attribute = (base attribute + basic skill level + advanced skill level + implant)*(1 + 0.05 * learning skill level)
..and if I've made a mistake there, I'm blaming sleep deprivation.
Most people really like the basic skill system, so I think you'll get little support and lots of flaming with this suggestion.
Personally, if I lose 6 hours of training between two skills that take days or weeks, I don't care all that much. |
Rufati |
Posted - 2008.01.25 10:46:00 - [ 4]
Not really. If that were the case, you'd be accumulating points at the base rate, without having improved upon any of your learning skills. Skills you haven't already learned cost isk, so leaving your account alone for a long time isn't helping. Even if the account is sold (is that even allowed?), that person would need to supply its own skill books.
This method is also no different to logging in once every couple hours, or once a day, and setting up a new skill. You don't need to play the game at all to do what you propose people will do if the system is revised. If a new system is exploitable, and that system is fundamentally the same thing as the current system, then the current system is exploitable. I can pop in whenever I need to and start learning something new. The only thing different in the revised system is that it is a better use of my time should I forget, or if certain circumstances strike me.
If my computer is put out of commission, if I change address, etc... If I'm paying for the game, and am unable to play, with the way the skill system is designed I should be able to gain skills while not being logged in, but as it is I can't once a level is completed.
The system is exploitable as it is. Log in once a day, start learning. Rinse and repeat for 6-12 months and sell it. If there are people willing to create trial account after account to use isk selling spambots, people will take the 5 minutes required to log in and set up skill learning every day.
I'm looking for something more constructive than 'zomg exploitz' to showcase why this idea is bad. |
Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Majesta Empire |
Posted - 2008.01.25 10:57:00 - [ 5]
If you go to bed without continuing to play WoW, isn't that wasted time? |
Rufati |
Posted - 2008.01.25 10:59:00 - [ 6]
About the neural interfacing storyline. That sounds like it'd change the speed of learning based on the available bandwidth of the medium used to transfer it and the size of the file being transferred. I've also not encountered any story elements that suggest the neural interfacing (maybe I missed them?). That also doesn't explain why implants don't take any amount of time to install - they're instantaneous. So using that story, it can take weeks and months to upload a file into my brain, but I can perform surgery on myself instantly?
Let's say, for the sake of preserving the story, that the accrued skill points in the revised method are parts of your brain ready to accept the instant transfer of data. Of course these parts of the brain take time to be ready to accept skill data (so skill points make sense this way, too).
And as for the '6 hours is ok to waste'. It isn't as a new player. When skills are taking 15 and 30 minutes to train, 6 hours is a waste. If I'm going to be traveling for a month and having no skill training in that time (while the game time has been paid for), I'm going to come back to wasted time in the game.
This just does what the proposed skill queuing and simultaneous skill learning systems will do. |
Rufati |
Posted - 2008.01.25 11:01:00 - [ 7]
 Originally by: Tarron Sarek
If you go to bed without continuing to play WoW, isn't that wasted time?
It would if WoW had a system in place that would let you level up outside of the game. But it doesn't. EVE does. Also, you can't achieve the level/skill cap in EVE in 1-2 weeks, can you? |
Ris Dnalor
Minmatar
Ex Cruoris Libertas |
Posted - 2008.01.25 11:04:00 - [ 8]
you can't seriously think that they will fundamentally change the way skills work after over 4 years of having players earn them a different way. It would be impossible to balance that. |
Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Majesta Empire |
Posted - 2008.01.25 11:12:00 - [ 9]
Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 25/01/2008 11:14:51 Originally by: Rufati
Originally by: Tarron Sarek
If you go to bed without continuing to play WoW, isn't that wasted time?
It would if WoW had a system in place that would let you level up outside of the game. But it doesn't. EVE does. Also, you can't achieve the level/skill cap in EVE in 1-2 weeks, can you?
Going to bed would be wasted time if WoW had offline leveling? Please enlighten me as to how on earth that makes sense, or re-read my statement carefully and consider including the probability of a slight hint of sarcasm in it, while interpreting. Just by the way, reaching the level cap in 1-2 weeks is for people without a life, willing to hurt their social contacts as well as their health. I'm glad CCP doesn't actively cater to them. |
Rufati |
Posted - 2008.01.25 11:13:00 - [ 10]
Originally by: Ris Dnalor
you can't seriously think that they will fundamentally change the way skills work after over 4 years of having players earn them a different way. It would be impossible to balance that.
Why impossible? People have skills already learned, they won't lose those, and it's more than easy enough to make the systems equivalent given that they have the formulas. The system is the same, fundamentally (saving up skill points, and buying instantly. depositing skill points into a skill over time. the time factor is still, and it isn't making things faster). Getting paid daily, is fundamentally the same as getting paid weekly. At the end of the week, you have the same amount of money paid to you. One way does it in little steps. The other in a bigger hit. The only difference in the revised from the current system is that there are no losses. |
Rufati |
Posted - 2008.01.25 11:20:00 - [ 11]
Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 25/01/2008 11:12:15
Originally by: Rufati
Originally by: Tarron Sarek
If you go to bed without continuing to play WoW, isn't that wasted time?
It would if WoW had a system in place that would let you level up outside of the game. But it doesn't. EVE does. Also, you can't achieve the level/skill cap in EVE in 1-2 weeks, can you?
Going to bed would be wasted time if WoW had offline leveling?
Please enlighten me as to how on earth that makes sense, or re-read my statement carefully and consider including the probability of a slight hint of sarcasm in it, while interpreting.
No, it'd be a waste if it had an offline feature that would stop, and not start on something new until you initiated it. Call it a waste, call it an inefficient use of the time, or whatever. But WoW has no such feature. WoW is also not EVE. They're entirely different games. So your point is.. Pointless? I'm here for constructive criticism and feedback. Not sarcasm. You can go back to the WoW forums for that =p |
Kerfira |
Posted - 2008.01.25 11:24:00 - [ 12]
Personal attacks are not permitted on the forums. ~Saint |
Rufati |
Posted - 2008.01.25 11:36:00 - [ 13]
I may not know how the game works as a whole, but I can see how the skill system works. I can see that it is inefficient. I'm simply proposing away to improve it.
It's daunting for new players starting in EVE, who obviously aren't established in the game with X million skill points like the people who have played for years. And whilst it's not hard to get started, they'll be behind for a long time.
And about the people who farm this game? You make it sound like they're doing it right now. So regardless of the skill system, whether it's easier or harder to farm - it will still be farmed by people who are willing to do that kind of thing.
One more thing, "Be courteous when disagreeing with others. It is possible to disagree without being insulting." is supposedly from rule 4 of these forums :S. So even if you call me an utter fool who is dumber than a dumb thing; it doesn't make your point any more valid than mine. So there's no need for name calling anyway. |
Kerfira |
Posted - 2008.01.25 11:49:00 - [ 14]
Originally by: Rufati
I may not know how the game works as a whole, but I can see how the skill system works. I can see that it is inefficient.
It is inefficient for a REASON! |
Rufati |
Posted - 2008.01.25 12:16:00 - [ 15]
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Rufati
I may not know how the game works as a whole, but I can see how the skill system works. I can see that it is inefficient.
It is inefficient for a REASON!
Which is what? To curb farming or something? Because at the moment it's only slowing down new players. And nothing will stop farmers of any kind. If it could be stopped, you wouldn't have isk sellers and other farmers in this game after all these years. Another point that I might add is that the revised system would be more aesthetically pleasing. It's nicer to see your little storage of skill points go up, and eventually 'buying' a skill. As opposed to right-clicking a skill and seeing the time you'll have to wait. The interface for skilling up becomes less daunting for the new player. So if it is inefficient for a reason, as you say, then that is a bad design choice. Streamlining the game helps players. I guess it also helps these farmers too? If that is such a problem, let them not allow character trading. But having a system in place which is designed to slow the game down is hurting the players (especially new ones). Some more point: Have a skill point cap. A point where once you reach it, you won't get any more until you spend something. Taking that into account, the cap would need to take into account the single longest skill to train in the game. Maybe even go so far as to make 1.5 or 2x that amount. As you get learning skills, you will reach that cap faster, making it less farmer friendly without hampering players (nowhere near the same extent as it is currently). It's nice that you can all come in here, say something is crap, then walk away. But what might work better would be adding in some of your own suggestions. It'd be nice to hear some other people trying to improve upon, or refine this idea. And how actively do Dev's or their representatives or whatever check out this forum? I wouldn't mind some reasoning as to why this idea is or isn't feasible from the people who make it all xD. |
Kerfira |
Posted - 2008.01.25 13:13:00 - [ 16]
Originally by: Rufati
...more blathering....
Have you really understood so little of what EVE is about? It is YOUR responsibility to set your skills training! It is YOUR responsibility to remember to change them! It is YOUR failure if you go without training! YOU, and no-one else!!! If you want to play a game where your hand is held, 'My Little Pony Online' might be more your style. EVE certainly isn't it! Read my sig for further enlightenment on how CCP think the world of EVE is..... |
Rufati |
Posted - 2008.01.25 14:08:00 - [ 17]
You make it sound more like a job, when it's a game. Perhaps you'd like to go and get a 'job'? This is not a question of responsibility. No one should need to have to set an alarm, or mark a date in their calendar. But if someone wants to get as much out of EVE as they can, that's exactly what they need to do.
I understand so little about EVE? I understand it isn't a job. If it was, I'd be the one getting paid. EVE is about flying around space, doing missions, killing NPCs, killing other people, mining, or building. But mostly making isk.
The skill system is not a definition of what EVE is. The current system is decent, but that doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement.
And I noticed that once the server went back up that the posts here began to slow. All that time that you guys don't seem to care about wasting is all of a sudden very important. Also, about your sig; it doesn't say that CCP say the world of EVE is one where you can only learn one skill at a time, and that system won't ever change.
So far the only real argument made against this has been that it's the fault of the player if you don't treat playing EVE as though it were a job, keeping all your skill training in check and managing it perfectly. I don't really want to have to come from work, only to get to work =/ |
Kerfira |
Posted - 2008.01.25 14:40:00 - [ 18]
Edited by: Kerfira on 25/01/2008 14:41:35 Originally by: Rufati
...more stuff about wanting EVE on easy mode...
So, I suspect your next whine thread will be to have those nice 'roids automatically mine themselves and teleport the ore to your hangar so you don't have to do the 'job' of mining them? Or those NPC's to suicide and automatically transfer their bounty to your wallet so you don't have to do the 'job' of shooting them? EVE is a game, where EFFORT is rewarded. If you spend time mining 'roids or shooting NPC's, you get ISK. If you spend time logging in and changing skills at the right time, you get more training done... You clearly demonstrate that you want things for no effort. EVE is not for you then! The current EVE skill system rewards people for their efforts. Your system would reward people for no effort.... So yes, you haven't got a CLUE about how EVE is! |
Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr
Purple Reign Entertainment
|
Posted - 2008.01.25 15:08:00 - [ 19]
Sorry, I don't like the idea.
EvE's leveling system might not be perfect, but it is good. The main problem is with the new players perception of skill points.
I have 65 million SP's now. I'm not very specialized because I sometimes like to use missles, sometimes laser, sometimes minnie ships, sometimes gallente.
But when I tell a new character that I have 65 million SP, he get's distraught because he compares it to XP in other games.
If I say I have level 5 in Amarr Frigate, he doesn't get as distraught, as it won't take him that long to get Amarr Frigate 5. Lvl 4 is actually enough to be competative with me in an Amarr Frigate and that is done within weeks.
Only difference between me and the noob, is that I can chose between Amarr, Gallente, Caldari and Minmatar, where he/she is stuck with Amarr.
So I don't see any reason for changing the skilling system to remove the newbies "Oh carp, I'm never going to catch up" feeling. Besides, if your system was implemented, I would probably have 70+ million SP now. Think I've lost over a month of training just from forgetting to change skills (was a huge annoyance at first, but now its just a "meh" feeling). |
Rufati |
Posted - 2008.01.25 15:47:00 - [ 20]
I can kill things just fine, although I specialise in and prefer mining. You see, again, those things are out of the scope of the skill system. Those are things that only happen while you do them. The skills, however, happen whether you are there or not. I don't need things handed to me, that's not the point of this system. There is no effort involved in training a skill. You start training, and away it goes.
You seem to think I want things made easier, that's not true. I just think it could (and should) be a bit more efficient. That is something we all strive for. You get better weapons to do more damage, or better mining lasers to mine better, and so on... There are ships dedicated to certain styles of play, and this is all to make them more efficient.
So the point of effort isn't really valid. You're not actually doing anything to make the skill train. Training a skill is effortless. Skill training only takes time. Doing some mining while training the mining skill doesn't increase it. There is no effort that I can put into the game that will affect my skills.
Changing the way skills work isn't making it easy mode. And I'm guessing that you probably have more skill points than that other guy, and that you probably don't like all these 'newbs' coming to the game.
I guess I was under the impression that the skill system was effectively meant to take a backseat to the game itself, allowing you to shoot and mine things without having to micromanage skills =/ how about giving us skill points for shooting and mining things? Since it's all about effort. Let me have the option of working to get my skills up faster? |
Kerfira |
Posted - 2008.01.25 16:00:00 - [ 21]
Edited by: Kerfira on 25/01/2008 16:01:14 Originally by: Rufati
There is no effort involved in training a skill. You start training, and away it goes.
There is no effort in training A skill LEVEL (like in 'singular'), but you want it to be no effort in training MANY skills and MANY levels. That requires the effort today of logging in and changing them. If you log in at the right time, you get the reward of training faster than if you let your character idle without training. Originally by: Rufati
You seem to think I want things made easier, that's not true. I just think it could (and should) be a bit more efficient. That is something we all strive for.
Your 'efficient' is equal to 'made easier' (as just demonstrated above).... As I said before, the current system is as it is to force people to actually log in. Hmm, my guess is that you're actually not a noob, but a character farmer... |
Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
Eclats de verre
|
Posted - 2008.01.25 16:03:00 - [ 22]
Originally by: Kerfira
The skill point system requires you to log in because CCP wants people to PLAY, and to make character farming harder!
Logging isn't playing... Farmers logged just to switch skills isn't helping the server, it is USELESS usage of server ressources. What the current system forces people to do is to think about what skills they are training and they give you the time needed to really think if it's the right thing to do. You have no excuse if you 'mistaked choosing a 3 weeks skill', you had all this time to rethink about training it. What should not happen is the accumulation and then spending of all accumuated SP, it takes off the time to think and not mistake. Originally by: Kerfira
With your solution in place:
"Create account"
"Log in, start accumulating points"
....6-12 months later.....
"Log in, distribute points as FOTM dictates"
"Sell account"
Yes, this would not improve the state of character selling... Selling a 'blank 20Mil SP character' would be the new FOTM in the character trade forums and auction sites. But, what I really don't like is the accumulate and train for FOTM. You should not accumulate to spend all SP in the last bugged/overpowered ship leading to months of unbalanced combat. Character training needs planning, and it's good. You plan carefully and then execute. In this purpose, the skill queue system. CCP has always been promoting the plan carefully, use proper tactics, use your brain and then win. A skill queue isn't breaking this concept, it just removes the need for continuously switching between a long skill and a short one to be able to train short ones. |
Rufati |
Posted - 2008.01.26 02:21:00 - [ 23]
Edited by: Rufati on 26/01/2008 02:25:51
The execution you talk about isn't there. It's not even a case of planning and execution. You plan, you do it, then you have to wait - which is how it is. As opposed to a system where you wait and plan in the same timeframe, then execute.
And as for the character selling problem, I already proposed a skill point cap to stop someone from hoarding points over the course of a year. But on second thought, a better solution would be to limit that cap to the length of the longest skill currently in their list. So when you're first starting out, you have skills that take what, 6 or 7 days to train at max? So let that be the cap. As you get learning skills, you reach that cap faster, making it not as easily exploited if you intend to be away for a long time.
This basically let's people who are actively playing the game, play it as they normally do. But if something happens and they can't play for a while, it won't hurt their game.
Conversely if a farmer waits a few months before allocating skill points, they'll see that those few months have been wasted.
I actually am fairly new, having played for a few weeks now. I've just done some work in interactive multimedia, especially being able to critically take a look at certain aspects of the design that may be flawed (and improved upon). So this is not about making things easier, but more appealing. If people have to be hardcore at the start to get anywhere quickly, then it's off putting.
I tried introducing some of my mates to WoW who said they would never play that game, and they're now into it a bit too much. I also tried getting some of them into EVE, and before the trial finishes they quit.
So there are obviously design flaws that don't bother people who have been playing for years, because it's been years and a day here or there doesn't matter anymore for them. But for people just starting out it'll turn them away. I find it hard to believe that CCP's goal would be to consistently turn new players off the game. If that was the case, they wouldn't be advertising EVE so heavily.
edit: another idea, have a cooldown on learning a skill. Like an hour or so, so that you can't just collect points over months and burn them all instantly. Maybe less or more depending on the level of skill to be trained. I'd say the character trading scenario would go down the drain with that. Store a year worth of points, and have fun spending them as the FOTM dictates an hour at a time. |
Arcayan |
Posted - 2008.01.26 21:58:00 - [ 24]
Originally by: Rufati
About the neural interfacing storyline.... I've also not encountered any story elements that suggest the neural interfacing (maybe I missed them?).
From the EVE FAQ: 2.6 How do characters gain skill and advance in EVE?
There is no leveling system in EVE. Instead, there is a very extensive skill system. Players choose from a wide variety of skills, each with a number of sub-levels. Characters buy skill-training kits, which are sold like any other commodity, and are rigged neurally to the character. Skill-training kits vary widely, both in price and availability. Once you learn a skill, you cannot unlearn it - but you don’t need to. There is no limit to the number of skills or skill points a single character can attain.
2.7 How is skill advancement achieved?
Character advancement is accomplished through the activation of skill training kits. Once a training kit is utilized, a certain period of time must elapse before training is complete and the skill is functional. The activation time required is measured in real time and training continues regardless of whether or not a player is connected to the game. The training time needed for skills may range from less than an hour to several days, depending on the type and complexity of the skill. You may only train one skill at a time, one character at a time per account. Time elapsed during training may be monitored through the character sheet.
You may purchase skill packs through the market either from players or NPC’s. The cost and availability will vary, based on the supply and demand of the skill. |
CEO CatzRule |
Posted - 2008.01.27 03:47:00 - [ 25]
We don't want the "Leveling" scheme to be more like WoW and SWG, its a ineffectual way of doing it, and as since Eve players in the virtual world are cybernetic in nature theres always a steady stream of information being fed into your brain. Even when your asleep your still learning stuff.
This is what makes it more unique compared to WoW and SWG where you kill something and gain combat experience from it, and if you log off, no more experience is gained. |
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