Posted - 2008.01.30 17:08:00 - [3]

 

Edited by: Fulmen on 30/01/2008 17:08:16
Boost Amarr!!! oh wait, you are!

We've (us whiny Amarr) been waiting for this so long, I bet that no matter what you do, it will be antclimactic. However, any change is better than no change, so keep up the good work.

Posted - 2008.01.30 17:15:00 - [5]

 

Actually doesn't seem like that bad of an idea. ^_^

Posted - 2008.01.30 17:16:00 - [7]

 

Nerf amarr, boost caldari

I guess this is good news for all those amarr players out there.

Posted - 2008.01.30 17:30:00 - [11]

 

Stealth minmatar boost.

Minmatar's most common damage type: Explosive.

Minmatar's most damaging ammo: EMP.

Won't help amarr much, though. They still can't fit ships worth a damn or fire for longer than a minute or two.

Posted - 2008.01.30 17:32:00 - [13]

 

I think i prefered the blog about the roids tbh.

Posted - 2008.01.30 17:35:00 - [17]

 

Nice too see that you have reached the tinkering stage. I don't really get why you decreased the explosive resistance on the zealots armor though?

This is nice and all and its good you take small steps. But you will take a closer look at the t1 cruisers of amarr using lasers, as well as the other "gimp"-mobiles as well I hope?

//Mika

Posted - 2008.01.30 17:43:00 - [21]

 

A question as well:

Have you a design goal for amarr, as you stated they are supposed to gank and tank.

For battleships this methodology is actually rather ok. The slow lumbering beasts combined with large optimal range offsets the capuse and the dps compared to other races.

On the cruiser level, amarrs extra optimal doesn't really have any effect since amarr cruisers can't control range, they are too slow to outpace the other nimble and fast cruisers, and amarr long range weapons are the shortest range of all the long range weps. Have you given this any though?

//Mika

Posted - 2008.01.30 17:50:00 - [23]

 

Sorry Zulu, but to me you havent really put much thought into this "boost". It doesnt adress any amarr problems but stealth boosts minmatar
Chronos

Posted - 2008.01.30 17:54:00 - [25]

 

Originally by: CCP Zulupark

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Originally by: Elmicker

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Perhaps it's time to directly address the mechanics that're broken? You know, like, switching em/therm around and lowering cap use?

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I think it's general consensus that one of the underlying problems for Amarr is that base EM resistances are too high. As I said, we're not adverse to more changes but we want to see how these changes pan out before we commit to doing even more changes.

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I definately agree this is the major factor in the equation, but there are still a number of fitting issues with Amarr - too many of the beams are too harsh on grid to fit and make comparable set ups to the ships of other races. A little attention to these at the same time, or at least phased in shortly after would, in my view, solve much of it.

While everyone would always love more mid slots, I can see why this would lose the flavour of the ships and if I could fit less powergrid upgrades to boost my damage, then I'd be be comfortable with the tanking vs EW trade off that Amarr face, or maybe even look to fitting some sensor boosters etc. As it is, I can hardly fit some of the guns on their own, let alone in a balanced set up, which is not as significant an issue for most other races weapons.

All in all though, this is a great step forward and it's nice to see CCP not nibbling at the edges of it just to avoid upsetting other race players - the resists were the major issue and it's right that they are addressed without tweaking something that could tilt the balance in an unknown direction.

Posted - 2008.01.30 17:58:00 - [27]

 

You should re-run your numbers on the resistance numbers on the new Zealot. Either they are wrong, or you nerfed it for no good reason[but didnt nerf the t2 minnie resists]

You are hearing a lot of complaints about Amarr DPS in general, but the people making that complaint are wrong. The problems with Amarr are specific to the design of lasers and the mechanics of tanking. These mechanics mean that amarr have one good laser ship type[passve tank + lots of damage], and anything that doesnt meet those requirements sucks. They suck because lasers arent meant to be short range weapons and active tanking is meant for battles where short range weapons are best.

For instance, even with the high EM resistance on Armor there wasnt much problem with the Abaddon or Armageddon. And now they are getting upwards of a 10% effective damage increase on armor.

But there were problems with the Omen and Maller and Prophecy and Punisher and Zealot, and absolution, and 10% more DPS on armor doesnt fix these ships.

Not to mention the t2 tanking changes[Ex/EM were already the best damage to deal against the majority of t2 ships, this has now been expanded].

But at the same time, you didnt fix the disproportionate amount of boost that Minmitar get from their tech 1 racial resistance bonus[its less now, but its still 20%]

By far, the largest problem with Amarr is not EM damage against armor[though scorch might have a tiny bit too large em slant, it has its advantages]. By far, the largest problem with Amarr is there are only three really good laser ships. The Geddon, the Abaddon, and the Harbinger. Two of these are bascially the same ship but one has 4% less dps and 20% more hit points. And then the Harbinger which again does pretty much the exact same thing, exept can fire its guns longer?

P.S. did you also consider that this boosts minmitar because part of their weakness was the "necessity"[in quotes, because it kinda is and kinda isnt] to change ammo in order to get decent damage on shields and they still take a hit. This reduces that effect.

Did you consider that the optimal omni tank will never include any hardeners because plates and extenders are simply that much better[and probably ought to be]

Yuck.

Posted - 2008.01.30 18:00:00 - [29]

 

Edited by: Elmicker on 30/01/2008 18:01:02

Originally by: CCP Zulupark

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You're talking about a very limited way of fitting a ship. Also, I said in the blog we were looking at some Amarr ships. There will be a blog shortly about how/what ships we've balanced.

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I am, because as i said, i'm not qualified to talk about amarr ship fittings - i don't have the same experience in them as i do in gallente, caldari and minmatar. If you really want another example, you can take, for example, the zealot (or any one of the other cruiser gunboats). Amarr philosophy is a strong passive tank, a large effective range (through high optimal, med falloff and high tracking) and high raw, unsustainable DPS.

In the BS theatre, this excels. MP BS are still excellent gang ships, especially the geddon and abaddon, as they have ~50km effective range of engagement, a load of HP and good raw damage for a time. In the cruiser theatre, this is useless. Cruisers, under current game mechanics, must rely on speed and maneuverability to survive. This renders any moderate range bonuses (such as the one on the zealot) pretty useless. The engagement flows too quickly. However, the ship lacks the utility and raw dps (4 turrets D:) to be able to do what it needs to do.

Originally by: Elmicker

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Every race has "it's" damage type. For Amarr that's EM. It just wouldn't make much sense to effectively remove one damage type from the game instead of trying to make it useful again. Also, what would then happen to EM drones and EM missiles?

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And it didn't make much sense to nerf mineral compression, carriers and T1 loot, but you still went ahead and did it anyway.

EM being less useful as a damage would not matter if the race was more playable. It'd give you more time to assess the specific amarr ships in the new environment, and then perhaps reintroducing a more complex mechanic for the buff of EM as a damage. As for EM drones and missiles - well. Drones don't matter anyway. Even after this change, the gallente and minmatar drones are far preferable. The minmatar ones especially, seeing as you've just nerfed explosive resists. EM missiles do actually see use, on the Khanid ships which recieve EM damage bonuses. The only reason they dont see more widespread use is because of the caldari racial kinetic bonus. It's fairly common for EM to be the lowest resist by ~10% on both shield and armour.

An excellent source of opinion so far is the SHC thread on this, where the general consensus so far (one i share) is that this boosts minmatar more than it boosts amarr.