| Author |
Topic |
 Cesar Malari Dark-Rising IT Alliance |
Posted - 2008.04.12 20:42:00 - [ 1]
Question for CCP: is reading the files the log server writes to my hard drive allowed by the EULA/TOS? Now, for the reason for my question: My corporation has been working on a tool for public release (currently targeted for whenever bug fixing is done -- should be inside of 30 days) that utilizes the data that the logserver writes to the hard drive, analyzes it, compares it to a user-supplied list of standings, and plays a series of customizable audio alerts when someone of a specific standing enters or leaves a system. Based on our reading of the EULA, and another thread here on the forums http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=734561, reading any files the client writes to the local hard drive is allowed, so long as we understand that CCP may change the format/style/existance of them at any time. What is not allowed is directly interfacing with the client, sniffing network traffic, or any attempt to "derive code" from the client (10C of the EULA). What is also not allowed is doing anything to grant the user an unfair advantage in the game (7A). Ie. if the data we were reading contained the location of cloaked ships, reading and using that data would not be allowed, as it violates 7A2 of the EULA, even if the data was acquired in a manner consistant with the EULA/TOS. In order to stay within the bounds of the EULA/TOS, we explicitly do not attempt to figure out any code within the client (including any of the logserver's code), nor do we attempt to directly communicate with the client or logserver -- our tool only reads the data the logserver writes to the hard drive. In addition, we don't attempt to get any data the user does not have immediately available to them on-screen. However, when we released the tool to our alliance for final testing prior to our public release (which we're intending to use an open-source license for -- likely GPL-based), a few members believed that this tool was in violation of the EULA. Now, as to whether they didn't understand that we were reading the files from the hard drive as opposed to reading the memory of the client, interpreted the EULA differently than we did, or thought that this would violate the 'spirit' of the EULA/TOS, I can't be sure. However, at their urging, I am making this post asking for something from CCP explicitly on this subject, as opposed to what we've been going off of so far -- responses to something similar or hersay. I understand that I'm making this post during Saturday evening in Iceland, so I completely expect not to get a response from someone within CCP until Monday morning Iceland time at the earliest. I'm primarily doing this now to reasure my alliance-mates that I have every reason to believe this is allowed and to be transparent towards those asking us questions about this. I'm sure at some point, someone's going to ask why I didn't just file a petition or the like. The biggest reasons? Transparency and TOS rule 18. If CCP says this is OK, I want to be able to point to a forum post I cannot fabricate in support of my position. Also, I want to make sure that I'm allowed to tell other people what I'm told in response to this question (TOS rule 18 prohibits publishing private communications with CCP). If we are told by a CCP representative that what we are trying to do is not allowed, we will immediately cease development, testing, use, and distribution of this application and strongly urge anyone who has access to it do to the same. My corpmates and I enjoy this game and are not looking to get kicked out of it, but rather to get the most from it. Additionally, if we are told that this is not allowed, we feel it would be in CCP's best interests to clarify the EULA/TOS in regards to what files Eve writes to the hard drive that we can read and which we cannot. I don't want to see people getting kicked out of this game due to a misinterpretation. ...continued... |
 Cesar Malari Dark-Rising IT Alliance |
Posted - 2008.04.12 20:42:00 - [ 2]
Edited by: Cesar Malari on 12/04/2008 20:42:34...continued... We're about playing this game smarter, not harder. We have spreadsheets and webpages to help with everything from invention probabilities to mining yields, mineral compression to locator agents and more. We won't be too disappointed if we can't use this technique -- we'll just have to focus more on leveraging the API and data dumps. Just so others reading this don't have to search around like I did, the EULA is available here: http://www.eve-online.com/pnp/eula.asp, and TOS is here: http://www.eve-online.com/pnp/terms.asp. Cesar Malari, Mad Scientist Gunfleet Logistics |
 Gralim Ikmonar Minmatar Pator Tech School
|
Posted - 2008.04.12 22:56:00 - [ 3]
Edited by: Gralim Ikmonar on 12/04/2008 22:56:49Edited by: Gralim Ikmonar on 12/04/2008 22:56:40Something that adds in functionality not inherent in the client(eg a warning for a hostile entering local) would probably get you banned. Programs like EFT and such only simulate functionality present in the game, they don't allow you to fit your ships outside of the game, and they most certainly don't give you extra features to give you an edge ingame such as a local warning system. Ah, here you go, read this thread http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=739449 |
 Cesar Malari Dark-Rising IT Alliance |
Posted - 2008.04.12 23:37:00 - [ 4]
Originally by: Gralim Ikmonar Ah, here you go, read this thread http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=739449
The way I read that thread, that's screen capture, ie. interacting with the client, ie. not the same thing. That comment at the end of the thread though is more like what I'm looking for (note: this is not a CCP comment...): Quote: Reading files that EVE client and/or logserver dumps to your HD = good. Hooking into EVE client and/or logserver and reading data from there = bad.
That summarizes my understanding of the rules, but I'd like a clarification from CCP before we release this thing. |
 Bellatroix Gallente Vogon Poetry Systems
|
Posted - 2008.04.13 05:55:00 - [ 5]
I would like to add my interest in a response to this issue. I've noticed a couple of threads talking about this recently with conflicting responses, so it's unclear if development of these kinds of programs (ones that read from log files only) are allowed or not. |
 Coconut Joe THE DISC Omega Vector |
Posted - 2008.04.13 08:24:00 - [ 6]
Quote: As long as you do not modify the file in question it is technically not against the EULA or TOS. It is only a cached version of a database method call.
If you do try to change it it will not actually effect the corp standings only the data YOU see in your client (which could cause problems for you).
In short : Yes you can do it, please don't change the file.
Straight from a dev. It's only on the second page of this forum as well  |
 postal dude Caldari Thundercats RAZOR Alliance |
Posted - 2008.04.13 13:12:00 - [ 7]
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 Cesar Malari Dark-Rising IT Alliance |
Posted - 2008.04.13 14:50:00 - [ 8]
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 Cori4n Caldari principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate |
Posted - 2008.04.13 15:45:00 - [ 9]
Edited by: Cori4n on 13/04/2008 15:45:54 There was a thread like this a few weeks ago by postal dude but it "mysteriously disappeared". I'd ask what happened to it, but I haven't ever seen him online on ICQ... |
 postal dude Caldari Thundercats RAZOR Alliance |
Posted - 2008.04.13 20:58:00 - [ 10]
Edited by: postal dude on 13/04/2008 20:59:15 Originally by: Cori4n Edited by: Cori4n on 13/04/2008 15:45:54 There was a thread like this a few weeks ago by postal dude but it "mysteriously disappeared". I'd ask what happened to it, but I haven't ever seen him online on ICQ...
Iam online the whole time, dude. Please mail me YOUR icq#... And, yes, the thread got moved by an admin. To "Deletion".  |
 Amida Ta German Mining and Manufacture Corp. |
Posted - 2008.04.14 06:50:00 - [ 11]
If I remember correctly it was stated that output from the logserver must not be used for writing tools against, as the logserver must only be run for detecting errors, not in normal operation. But would be nice to get CCP info on it. IMHO the devs post from above was targeting cachefiles exclusively and not logserver output. |
 Koala Bare |
Posted - 2008.04.14 08:18:00 - [ 12]
This is probably a moot point in regards for actuality. There's a fair few folks in 0.0 NPC space who mention similar tools in use on their forums, pre trinity as well.
It kinda reminds me of the whole coloured local list thing which caused such a stir a long time ago when an alliance came up with it, only to see it show up suddenly as an actual feature.
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 CCP Lingorm

 C C P
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Posted - 2008.04.14 09:09:00 - [ 13]
I will find out for you.
My initial reaction is that there is nothing 'wrong' with this per say. As long as you are only reading the logserver logfiles not the raw log server output. As these files can be delayed in writing, or if you want an immediate write then it takes up more cpu and disk IO that is your call.
Please do not take this as CCP approval, but I will go ask the appropriate people and get you a definitive answer.
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 Cesar Malari Dark-Rising IT Alliance |
Posted - 2008.04.14 12:53:00 - [ 14]
Originally by: CCP Lingorm I will find out for you.
My initial reaction is that there is nothing 'wrong' with this per say. As long as you are only reading the logserver logfiles not the raw log server output. As these files can be delayed in writing, or if you want an immediate write then it takes up more cpu and disk IO that is your call.
Please do not take this as CCP approval, but I will go ask the appropriate people and get you a definitive answer.
Thanks, that's what we're looking for. Just to be clear, I'm not sure what you mean by "the logserver logfiles" vs. "the raw log server output". We're talking about the .lbw files that the log server writes to the hard drive in server mode. |
 Tonto Auri Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
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Posted - 2008.04.14 15:09:00 - [ 15]
I woluld say that from the basic terms of safety, any data sent to client intended for usage client-side. There can't be any data that may make difference in gameplay if You are using it or not. If CCP does not want us to use this or that data, they should not send such data to client. |
 Cesar Malari Dark-Rising IT Alliance |
Posted - 2008.04.14 15:48:00 - [ 16]
Originally by: Tonto Auri I woluld say that from the basic terms of safety, any data sent to client intended for usage client-side. There can't be any data that may make difference in gameplay if You are using it or not. If CCP does not want us to use this or that data, they should not send such data to client.
There's likely scenarios where your client is sent more data than it would strictly need to render what it is rendering. For example, it likely sends the basic weapon type (blaster/rail) and size (large/medium/small) mounted to all the ships on your grid, in case you do a look at and view them at close range -- the turret animation is different. However, if you're more than 100km away from said ship, you can't look at it, hence reading the data streamed from the server to get that information would be a competitive advantage. Besides, TOS 21 bans getting to that data. |
 wxEswat Amarr |
Posted - 2008.04.14 17:27:00 - [ 17]
Originally by: CCP Lingorm I will find out for you.
My initial reaction is that there is nothing 'wrong' with this per say. As long as you are only reading the logserver logfiles not the raw log server output. As these files can be delayed in writing, or if you want an immediate write then it takes up more cpu and disk IO that is your call.
Please do not take this as CCP approval, but I will go ask the appropriate people and get you a definitive answer.
Thanks for looking into this. I appear to be one of many individuals writing tools for eve-online.  I assume the chats and gamelogs are free reign even if the logserver output is a no-no? |
 Cesar Malari Dark-Rising IT Alliance |
Posted - 2008.04.15 16:09:00 - [ 18]
Originally by: CCP Lingorm I will find out for you.
My initial reaction is that there is nothing 'wrong' with this per say. As long as you are only reading the logserver logfiles not the raw log server output. As these files can be delayed in writing, or if you want an immediate write then it takes up more cpu and disk IO that is your call.
Please do not take this as CCP approval, but I will go ask the appropriate people and get you a definitive answer.
If I'm translating timezones correctly, it's at or near the end of the day in Iceland now. I understand things probably got rather busy today with the patch, so I can understand you not being able to get back to us today. If you won't be able to get us an answer tomorrow, could you get us an estimate of when you could get us an answer? Like I mentioned, we're going through final testing and would like to release this tool soon, and we'd rather release with solid confirmation that it's allowed rather than a post we can't really rely on. |
 Cesar Malari Dark-Rising IT Alliance |
Posted - 2008.04.17 13:58:00 - [ 19]
Lingorm - any word yet, or idea when you'll be able to give us something?
We're looking to release soon, and we'd like to have a clear decision before then, but we don't want to wait forever. |
 GM Grimmi

 |
Posted - 2008.04.18 10:25:00 - [ 20]
There does not appear to be any violation of our EULA or TOS here so we believe this should be ok. Please be advised that we will thoroughly investigate any reports that would point to the contrary and reserve the right to change our minds if deemed appropriate.
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 Cesar Malari Dark-Rising IT Alliance |
Posted - 2008.04.18 13:04:00 - [ 21]
Edited by: Cesar Malari on 18/04/2008 13:11:55 Originally by: GM Grimmi There does not appear to be any violation of our EULA or TOS here so we believe this should be ok. Please be advised that we will thoroughly investigate any reports that would point to the contrary and reserve the right to change our minds if deemed appropriate.
Thanks for taking the time to think this over and officially respond to our question. Gunfleet Logistics looks forward to providing this tool to the podpilots of Eve in the near future. We just don't want to get banned over it -- we like playing this game :) |
 Fastercart Gallente Ornery Cantankerous Curmudgeons
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Posted - 2008.04.18 15:28:00 - [ 22]
When you have your release, you may want to have a link pointing to CCP Lingorm's and GM Grimmi's quotes. I've seen instances of threads getting locked and unlocked due to some not being on the same page. This isn't a swipe or troll against CCP, but it does happens. Good luck with the app. |
 Tonto Auri Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
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Posted - 2008.04.18 15:47:00 - [ 23]
Originally by: GM Grimmi There does not appear to be any violation of our EULA or TOS here so we believe this should be ok. Please be advised that we will thoroughly investigate any reports that would point to the contrary and reserve the right to change our minds if deemed appropriate.
You'd better change protocol to send only 100% required info to client. It will also reduce network load. |
 Cesar Malari Dark-Rising IT Alliance |
Posted - 2008.04.20 02:57:00 - [ 24]
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 Koala Bare |
Posted - 2008.04.20 10:29:00 - [ 25]
Well, as much as I personally dislike this, kudos for putting it out there in the open. It's the first tool of its kind in use which actually admits that it exists. None of the others I have come across over time has had the balls to do that, or even try and establish contact with CCP.
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 postal dude Caldari Thundercats RAZOR Alliance |
Posted - 2008.04.20 10:35:00 - [ 26]
Originally by: Cesar Malari Since I have recieved several private messages regarding what we're doing with this data as a result of this thread, I figured I'd throw a quick message here that we've released the tool discussed here: BACON (http://bacon.gunfleet.org).
Here's the thread on these forums announcing it: http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=753409.
Good work. Thats exactly what my tool was doing, but you do it in a EULA-Safe way.  So anybody who mailed me about my tool can now use this one.  |
 Fastercart Gallente Ornery Cantankerous Curmudgeons
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Posted - 2008.04.20 17:06:00 - [ 27]
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 Cesar Malari Dark-Rising IT Alliance |
Posted - 2008.04.20 23:53:00 - [ 28]
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 Ikki Phoenix Gallente Flying While Intoxicated Threshold Republic |
Posted - 2008.04.21 20:37:00 - [ 29]
Seems like a great tool From reading this thread, I understand that the tool is legal,so I will test it later tonight and if I like it I will recommend it to my corp and alliance.
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 AthlonJedi Gallente RazorBlade Smile Inc.
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Posted - 2008.04.22 23:02:00 - [ 30]
ya know if people keep making tools like this, eventuly eve is gonna end up like SWG, these types of tools in my eyes would give those insystem an unfair advantage over those comming to pvp or fight wars.
every tool like this makes the game that much less fun to play. Whats the use of forming up a fleet to go PvP or attack a war target if they will recieve a warning when you come into thier area and can dock up and hide before you get a chnce to do any damage?
whats next a tool that plays eve for you?
I for one am against such things as they ruin the game a little more with what they do. Besideds, Thats the reason local chat exists. just one more way to cheat in my opinion. |