| Author |
Topic |
Azerath
More-Cowbell
|
Posted - 2008.04.29 05:11:00 - [ 1]
FIN and FIN-U atm seem to be abit "shakey" atm and I'd like to know what is currently available to switch some(all) assets into.
Would some of the investment corps/etc please post what you have to offer at this moment, including cost per bond, rate of return, and past history, thank you. Also include a contact for purchasing the shares/bonds. |
Robacz
Essence Enterprises
|
Posted - 2008.04.29 08:20:00 - [ 2]
Hm, nothing comes to my mind tbh. There are smaller IPOs/bonds launched occasionally, but they are either scam or sold out within few hours. Big players are in trouble (Ionia, Eefrit) or out of business (ISSO). Check RESX for some older shares and bonds, they have dividend history so you can see if the company pays them or not. But not much offers there neither. So I would say your only chance is 3%(+/- not sure) in Ebank, but their account are limited to X billions. Summary: Eve financial market sucks.  |
Ray McCormack
Kisoken Innovations |
Posted - 2008.04.29 08:34:00 - [ 3]
The market is in a pathetic state.
|
Tanmoe |
Posted - 2008.04.29 09:05:00 - [ 4]
 Quote:
The market is in a pathetic state.
Would you care to elaborate plz? |
LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party |
Posted - 2008.04.29 09:14:00 - [ 5]
Originally by: Tanmoe
Quote:
The market is in a pathetic state.
Would you care to elaborate plz?
At this point, the secondary market is dead. CCP doesn't seem to care about it either. But due to the primary market being in an even worse state, so is the secondary market. Your best bets atm: EBank, LVM(If you can find them), Fury bank(If you can buy an account off someone) and other small-scale operations. |
Segge Bolled
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.04.29 10:32:00 - [ 6]
My first thought in response to "What's hot to invest in" was simply a cheap sexual pun. However, my second thought was that people generally seem to have mostly good things to say about that EBank thing. |
Mensageiro Cai
Project 1.5 |
Posted - 2008.04.29 10:50:00 - [ 7]
My IPO sold out in a fairly short period of time, so you have to be very quick to get in on the newer IPO's. I pay out 11% of the initial purchase price per month (up from 10% at launch) as a dividend although as no shares have changed hands or touched an exchange there is no "official" record of this. My shareholders will confirm my payments though.
I have been contemplating a new venture for some time, and am still sorting out details etc. So keep an eye out on the Market forums! |
Ambo
I've Got Nothing
|
Posted - 2008.04.29 10:52:00 - [ 8]
IMO the problem is that there is no longer any need to run an IPO.
1) Many big players have such large amounts of isk that they can simply do as they please with no need for loans, bonds, etc.
2) No viable high-end industrial goals. Setting up a large POS reaction chain is well within the means of many on here without extra cash, the capital market is a shambles, outposts have been proven over time to be at best, a poor performer.
3) E-bank. I like the stability ebank has bought to the market but it's certainly had an effect on killing off small IPOs. Why bother with investors, shares, etc when you can just get a loan from ebank?
This leaves us with either run for fun IPOs (nothing wrong with that but they're few and far between) or small-time deals with little or no collateral.
In short, I'd say your investment choices at the moment are either fury bank or ebank. Both have 3 bil (savings) account limits and I believe fury has a 200 mil minimum. |
Xantheris
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.04.29 12:27:00 - [ 9]
I've only recently begun to dabble in the market, both commodities and financial, in Eve and I think it is extremely fun and CCP should definitely look into developing it more.
Also it is a difficult and time consuming thing to run an IPO in Eve, and a successful one at that... So I think most people just cannot handle the amount of time that needs to be invested. One thing I'd like to see more is ventures being coordinated by bigger groups. I know that 30 people "running" one IPO would be very unorganized and slow to get things done, but maybe 6-10 people running things to help split up the work? |
BSAC MMM
EVE Mineral Reserve |
Posted - 2008.04.29 12:47:00 - [ 10]
I have a long-term risky investment that you could invest in. Make sure that you read the prospectus completely before investing. Public shares will be available May 2.
|
SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
|
Posted - 2008.04.29 12:49:00 - [ 11]
As a Director on the Board for EBank, I must say EBank is not a Public Company and maybe shouldn't considered an Investment. We offer and will be offering up some services to which people can use with Deposited ISK and that ISK earns a little interest.
Just so you know the Savings account option is not available at the moment. Checking account is still available, it has a 6 Billion ISK limit and earns 1.5% Monthly calculated daily.
After the first month (If you deposit 6 billion into the Checking account), you'll have over 90 million in interest. After a year over 1.2 Billion in interest.
EBank is not an IPO and I'll say I would much rather see that ISK used in the secondary market then squandered away in a low interest EBank account. If no one invests in new IPOs the secondary market might as well be deleted from EVE. |
Block Ukx
Forge Laboratories
|
Posted - 2008.04.29 12:59:00 - [ 12]
Originally by: SencneS
EBank is not an IPO and I'll say I would much rather see that ISK used in the secondary market then squandered away in a low interest EBank account. If no one invests in new IPOs the secondary market might as well be deleted from EVE.
Part of the problem is that there aren’t new IPOs. Also, it looks like people would rather deposit 6 B in EBANK at 1.5%, than invest 1 B in a new IPO at 9%. |
SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
|
Posted - 2008.04.29 13:04:00 - [ 13]
Originally by: BSAC MMM
I have a long-term risky investment that you could invest in. Make sure that you read the prospectus completely before investing. Public shares will be available May 2.
Everyone seems to forget this IPO even though I throw the name at them every time someone asks. BSAC MMM had a 5.84% return last month, some investors got a higher return due to timing on the investment. A 5.56% return the month before, an 18.28% in February and 18.33% in January. Don't let those return rates fool you, the investment sizes in January and February was only a few hundred million I believe, the current investment is in the tens of billions. Some very well respected people invest in this IPO and have enjoyed the returns since the start. Investment opportunity happens monthly if the CEO chooses to allow more to invest. They are usually 20 billion ISK lots and there is a limit on the per user investment each month. As well as a limit on the over all investment percentage one can hold in the corporation. May 2nd is the next opportunity to invest, look for the MinMa IPO thread when it comes and post early as these often sell rather quickly. Disclaimer:- For the sake of transparency, I am also on the Board of Directors for this Corporation, so please take that into consideration when looking reading the above. |
SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
|
Posted - 2008.04.29 13:20:00 - [ 14]
Originally by: Block Ukx
Part of the problem is that there aren’t new IPOs. Also, it looks like people would rather deposit 6 B in EBANK at 1.5%, than invest 1 B in a new IPO at 9%.
That is indeed depressing. Trust plays such a large role in the secondary market now and days, we've all turned into weak scared kittens. Real investors take risks  |
Ulstan |
Posted - 2008.04.29 13:41:00 - [ 15]
They do take risks, but I think investors in EVE are even more risk averse than investors in real life, due to no scam protection at all.
I'm not saying that's a bad thing, just another one of the ways in which EVE economics and RL economics differ. |
cosmoray
Bella Vista Holdings Corp |
Posted - 2008.04.29 14:23:00 - [ 16]
The market is in a truly sorry state.
1. The really big IPO's are all in trouble. Either the CEO's have disappeared or the business models have changed for the worse. The amount of money that COULD be lost has destroyed confidence.
2. Competition has forced returns in T1 production to 10% and under. The IPO's for this type of business have simply disappeared, as after wgaes and expenses the monthly ROI is in the 4-7% range which is not sufficient for investors to get over the scam "factor".
3. Invention is destroying returns in the T2 market, which is great for the customer.
4. Due to the lack of quality investments Banks are thriving offering accounts and secured/unsecured loans.
Due to the above and the constant 'scam factor', only a very few new businesses have been launched since Trinity.
These IPO's have mostly been boutique/small IPO's and typically sell out in minutes/hours as there is too much cash looking for a home. |
Block Ukx
Forge Laboratories
|
Posted - 2008.04.29 14:38:00 - [ 17]
I agree, and investors need to look at both risks separately. Since ccp endorsed scams, there isn’t much you can do about scam risks. I once gave the opportunity to a BSAC member to make hundred of millions but instead he opted to steal 120 mil. Not everyone scams, and the vast majority of people a deal with are trustworthy. But scams do happen.
Investors tend to focus heavily on the scam risk that they overlook the “real” business risk. And if the business fails or does not perform as advertised, investors tend to doubt the CEO trust. Current returns are so low that investors and IPOs are staying on the sidelines.
It feels like a recession!
|
Xantheris
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.04.29 14:50:00 - [ 18]
It's getting depressing reading this thread...  So with lots of things that are going wrong or badly listed. What can we do to fix the state of the investment/IPO market? Is there anything people at the consumer level can do? People at the supplier level? Reseller level? Corp CEO level? Or is this the kind of thing that just relies on people trusting other people in a virtual world? |
Amarr Citizen 155
Amsen Innovations
|
Posted - 2008.04.29 14:54:00 - [ 19]
Well, i guess you could all invest your money in a w_horehouse :/
I have to agree with the above comments but I would like to also be a bit more optimistic. I'd like to believe that the current state of the eve economy is going to force the players to change the way we think and play(and invest). How will these changes come about and what will they be? I guess if CCP is unwilling to make changes we can only hope that the community will come up with something.
/end optimism
THE SKY IS FALLING, ITS THE END OF THE WORLD!!! |
Mensageiro Cai
Project 1.5 |
Posted - 2008.04.29 15:08:00 - [ 20]
I must admit that my IPO is run generally for fun. I mean, who can't make 165 million a month, and make a bit more to pay a salary and keep a bit of profit in the corporation?
If I do expand, and it's looking like an ever more lilely scenario it will be a lot bigger and a lot more serious. |
Xantheris
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.04.29 15:17:00 - [ 21]
I think lots of small IPOs run for fun would be good for the market. I mean in the end people play Eve to have fun, so if something that provides a little extra fun and income, and is sustainable is possible for someone... they should definitely start it up.
Only problem is the small ones are usually grabbed by the banks or big investors. Leaves very little room for newcomers to the Eve financial marketplace |
Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
|
Posted - 2008.04.29 15:33:00 - [ 22]
To be a bit fair to the current markets, Dusk Blade only shut down because of my RL commitments, and not due to any failing of the business. What started with 4 billion isk and went on to return 70% of that original investment over 8 months and looks to return between 250-300% extra, there's *definately* room out there for IPOs to work.
To be fair to the other side of the argument though, while Dusk Blades funds tripled/quadrupled during this time, it's production didn't, and yet all funds were still eaten up by production constantly. To get things running takes a lot more ISK nowadays.
I just think people need to have the time for some commitment and have fun with it in the process. |
Amarr Citizen 155
Amsen Innovations
|
Posted - 2008.04.29 15:43:00 - [ 23]
Originally by: Xantheris
I think lots of small IPOs run for fun would be good for the market. I mean in the end people play Eve to have fun, so if something that provides a little extra fun and income, and is sustainable is possible for someone... they should definitely start it up.
Only problem is the small ones are usually grabbed by the banks or big investors. Leaves very little room for newcomers to the Eve financial marketplace
This is simply a bad argument and frankly I'm growing tired of hearing it. Its all about timing. When a post is made about an IPO or other such investment, its pretty much fair game to whomever can reserve it first. This doesn't have to be the "banks or big investors" who gobble them up but can be anyone who keeps an eye on the forums and acts rather than sitting back and waiting for the big boys to "sign off" on the investment or for others to ask the questions needed to determine if the investment is a good one. |
SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
|
Posted - 2008.04.29 15:44:00 - [ 24]
There is also another side that has to be addressed.
The Trusted.
Those people who can open IPOs and don't, they would rather take a loan out and repay it. I think this comes down to the CEO looking at the "work" load of an IPO.
For example - I could open an IPO for 2 billion, and offer a 8% return each month. Although small it would be one of the better investment options available. However it's the 8% per month that I don't like. I would rather take a loan for 2 billion, and pay 30% over 3 months and then after that get 100% of the income for myself.
More and More people are investing in themselves. Although there is nothing wrong with that it's also a contributing factors in destroying the secondary market. |
Shar Tegral |
Posted - 2008.04.29 16:00:00 - [ 25]
Originally by: Xantheris
So with lots of things that are going wrong or badly listed. What can we do to fix the state of the investment/IPO market?
"Fixing" the state of the investment market has been discussed for years. A good four years at least. Much of what is being cited here as reason the market is in a depression has been the same since the investing market was first born. I'm not going to get into a lengthy post on the cycle of efficiency ... just going to say that business opportunities that most have invested in have often enough been the kinds of things that are not subject to player interference or disruption. They are built around maximizing possibilities of the game system itself. Given enough time more and more people figure out these "min/maxing's" of the system and thus the profitability gets split between that many more hands. Of course those activities most prone to player interventions can produce the most profits but require substantial investment and carries the most risks. Something that is against the care bear nature of most investors. (I.e. O.O poses and what not.) |
Xantheris
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.04.29 16:04:00 - [ 26]
I do understand that people need to decide on which IPOs to invest in, and timing matters, reading comprehension matters, etc. But just like in the real world, most smaller investors will follow the big boys. Maybe a larger volume of small scale IPOs will allow newcomer investors to snag a few that are similar enough to the ones the big boys already took.
My reasoning is that maybe the new investors will eventually get more into the idea of IPOs and the market and start their own IPOs.
Of course the big issue is still TRUST. Even if 100 new small IPOs appeared right now, probably 95 would be rejected. So I don't know quite how that could be fixed. |
Shar Tegral |
Posted - 2008.04.29 16:20:00 - [ 27]
Originally by: Xantheris
Of course the big issue is still TRUST. Even if 100 new small IPOs appeared right now, probably 95 would be rejected. So I don't know quite how that could be fixed.
If 100 ipo's showed up right now... 95 of the would be scams. So, ergo, this is not what is broken. Accountability beyond personal ethics is what everyone is actually desiring. If people could be held accountable then investing would not be so scary for the public. But when someone scams there is rarely very little that can be done at all, if anything at all. And, to be blunt, most of you don't really want accountability. You don't mind everyone else being accountable, just not you. So, until that is cured, trust will always be an unresolvable issue. But it is not what is wrong. What is wrong is that there is so little specialization. With specialization comes exclusivity. There are plenty of doctors but few neurosurgeons that are also well versed in oncology. (An example I can firmly validate.) The same thing is true in Eve. There are no professions that can not be quickly swarmed with about 3 months training. Thus, more exclusive opportunities to generate good returns are elusive. There by explaining why there are so few valid and substantial IPO's available as well. Blah, I'm starting to blather and get unfocused. PS: Mind you some of us have proven our trustworthiness for years... and yet some of you bastards take every opportunity to troll by saying, in one word or many paragraphs, "Yet". |
Xantheris
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.04.29 16:29:00 - [ 28]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Blah, I'm starting to blather and get unfocused.
I enjoy reading your "blather." I learn some stuff from it usually  So in the end it is down to game mechanics, and the flow at which new opportunity is introduced or removed from the game right? |
Azerath
More-Cowbell
|
Posted - 2008.04.29 16:44:00 - [ 29]
I'm glad I sparked such an elaborous debate, seems nice to have people vent abit about the current situation and share my concerns.
Seems like all in all there is only a couple reputable IPO'S available, and they only have openings here and there on a monthly basis, gotta be quick I suppose.
Honestly I'm surprised there aren't more IPO'S trying to turn over some isk, if you know how to make a profit, there is opportunity with other people's isk, explore it!
|
Shar Tegral |
Posted - 2008.04.29 17:04:00 - [ 30]
Originally by: Xantheris
So in the end it is down to game mechanics, and the flow at which new opportunity is introduced or removed from the game right?
At this juncture, age level of Eve, "Yes". Far too many smart people working in too small an environment. Look at it, some of these guys run 10+ accounts just to expand their capabilities. (I have 2, only 2, and have only had 2 since launch [#2 was a friend from beta who didn't renew past 90 days]). Essentially there is little challenge... correction... little rewarding challenge for those who are trustworthy & competent enough to do an IPO. Another thing... I like everyone else playing eve dislikes being indebted or beholden to anyone. IPO's are generally supposed to run till "???". That's why I prefer my own ipo's to be bonds, most emphatically bonds, as there are clear goals, clear milestones, and clear ends. |
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