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EVE Chronicle
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EVE Chronicle
The Speaker of Truths
optimizations, optimizations, optimizations
reported by CCP Oveur | 2005.11.03 09:11:57
We've been reading a lot on the forums lately on bashing this and that decision because of various reasons but mostly because of optimizations, which is quite new.

Now me being the troll that I am, I was itching to reply to most of them. However, sense had the better of me since supposedly I'm the one that has to look remotely intelligent and respectful being the Producer of EVE. Many of you have met me in person and if anything, I don't ooze of intelligence and respect. More ooze of alcohol and lust for cigarettes when I'm drunk. (See chapter 14 of "Oveur gets drunk at Fanfest")

Anyways, we felt we had to explains some very fundamental things of how you do a computer game, well, not only a computer game, but an MMO and how all this scaling works, where "lag" is created, perceived and exterminated.

Why? Because reading through the forums there seems to be this common illusion that fixing things is usually just doing a single thing. That's simply wishful thinking at best, there is no "Fix" button any more than there is an "I Win" button.

EVE Architecture 101



As you can see in this nifty animated pic I did, there are many places where "lag" can exist and most of it only happens in certain places. However, lag is most commonly caused by either insufficient resources (CPU, RAM) or network and latency (Packet loss, latency) which is the Interweb part and is mostly out of our control.

We showed a couple of examples on where we are adressing lag in Red Moon Rising. We did this because we wanted to show you how one thing can severely affect other parts of the game. For example, factory facilties use a lot of hardware resources on our SOL servers and SQL servers, which directly affects Drones, NPC's, Agents and Turrets/Effects (which is essentially combat) since those systems are also using resources on SOL servers.

The same can therefore be said for Drones, they use the same resources that NPC's and Turrets do, both on the Client and on the SOL Servers. Fortunately, our Proxy layer does not suffer from most of what is listed, that is more geneal CPU usage since it's basically just routing and load balancing.

The last view you see it the easiest way to address many of these problems - adding more Hardware (Affectinately knowns as YARRDWARE from now on). However, this only solves the problem to some extent since all of this has to be solved in content and software too.

We always want to evolve the gameplay in EVE and in many cases, like Drones, there is no way to do that without optimizing the bejesus out of the system. An easy fix isn't always possible since the system is already so resource intensive that we are directly prohibited from evolving them.

Optimizing it usually means exterminating the factor which causes the most load - and in the case of Drones, the number of drones in space was #1, using heavy resources on the Client and the SOL servers. Exterminating the factor meant reducing the number of drones, plain and simple.

Therefore, we always attack from all fronts, we work the content, we optimizes the software AND we buy YARRDWARE. This enables us to evolve gameplay while at the same time we get better performance on both the client and the SOL server.

BUT MESS WITH SOMETHING ELSE THAN MY STUFF!!!

Everyone gets the nerf bat in situations like this. There is no option to leave resource intensive systems like they are. I was actually reading a bit from Colin Powell the other day and I found this quote quite relevant to all this discussion

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it" is the slogan of the complacent, the arrogant or the scared. It's an excuse for inaction. It's a mindset that assumes (or hopes) that today's realities will continue tomorrow in a tidy, linear and predictable fashion. Pure fantasy. In this sort of culture, you won't find people who proactively take steps to solve problems as they emerge."

It's quite blunt, but I like it and it constantly reminds me to never stop evolving EVE. If something is using so much resources that it is affecting other gameplay and directly prevents evolution, it's broken.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST MOVE THE AGENTS!!!1

Interesting suggestion, we hadn't thought of that. Oh wait, we had - and it has been stated a number of times by us that we will move agents. We were even going to do it in the last patch, but found some other measures which could have solved the problem. They didn't. Well, agent relocation is in RMR.

You see, the problem with our 10 hotspot systems is the fact that a single solar system, with all its activity - like Agents/NPC's, Dungeons, Stations etc. - can only run on a single CPU. These systems already have their own CPU. (Market-, Corp- and Chat services are not included in this, they are seperate)

This brings us to solving the problem in the content, simply by moving the agents around. This is going to cost us a lot of customers, but we're still going to do it because at this point in time, it's the only way.

We're already optimizing the individual systems (Effects, Turrets, NPC's, Drones, Manufacturing/Research Facilities) so that a solar system is handling far less work than today, resulting in more resources available for the people playing in that solar system but that will still not be enough.

We have neighbouring systems that are running on CPU's with faaar less average CPU load than for example Rens which is at 100% pretty much all day. Hence the simple suggestion to players to move to another system - before we force you too.

However, this only solves Rens. We still need to do the Turret, Effects, NPC's and Drones for combat everywhere around space. Larger engagements of only 40 ships encounter problems today. It's not justifiable that Turrets, Effects and Drones alone are taking 10's of % of a whole CPU, is it? I'd say that's broken.

Since we're talking about examples, lets not forget bookmarks. We've seen a lot of speculation that they possibly can't be a server load. Well, they sure are. Copying a couple of hundred bookmarks takes serious CPU time on SOL and SQL servers, so take this as a hint. If you're doing thousands, you might be killing a couple of pour soul in combat somewhere.

Summing it up

Optimizing is far from simple and there is not a single solution which does not affect anyone to some extent. We're certainly not going to start sharding Tranquility because of bugs or bad code which we can fix, especially not when we have 70 of the 110 CPU's with less than 50% average load.

We're also going for new YARRDWARE. We're investigating how much we add, what type (AMD? INTEL? 64 BIT! Dual Core?) or if we should simply replace all the damn hardware. I doubt we can afford that, but hey, we're CCP, we're crazy (you can read a number of certified psychologists opionins on that on the forums) and we're using millions of dollars on hardware and optimizations, but we live for EVE, we love EVE, she only deserves the best. So do you.

Addendum to a lot of questions in the blog

Why isn't EVE a multithreaded "application"?

First off, EVE is a very very multithreaded application and far more so than most you will encounter. We use Stackless Python to get microthreading abilities within the single process running on each CPU.

To better clarify that, right now, the EVE cluster is running 110 threads on 110 CPU's. Within those threads we have 100's to 1000's of microthreads running various services.

Other MMO's are usually doing a monolithic design (one big supercomputer) which do not scale very well or they have a distributed design but have physical assignment of threads to CPU's where a thread is running a geographical part of the universe but do instancing which they can run abstract from the geography because the instanced location has nothing to do with the geography and thus does not matter to the universe.

The problem for us is the granularity of the load balancing. We have lots of very small grains, like a chat service for a solar system or is geographically abstracted and can therefore be located in another thread which physically translates to another CPU. Same goes for lots of bigger grains, such as market, corp services, alliance services etc.

However, we have on very big grain which we can today not split between threads without running the risk of handover problems, synchronization problems or even worse - players stuck in the middle of space.

Stuck usually happens only on session changes (docking, jumping) which is exactly when you are handed over between CPU's (or forced by a service which requires it). The big grain is the Solar System. Imagine being able to get stuck around a gate in combat. Not a pleasant thought :)

As stated below, Stations can be removed and done as a seperate grain which are then geographically abstract, but we still have a number of services depending on them being on the same CPU to decrease the need for handovers in the session changes. Moving between solar systems on different threads require handoff and a session change.

This is the best I could explain this on short notice. I'm the Producer and as a result am not allowed close to codes or technical stuff with a 10-feet pole, but I hope it helps.

Our SQL problems were essentially exterminated recently when we got our RAMSAN-400 but we still have services which can wreck havoc by simply requiring some other resource for a short period of time, like RAM or CPU and only affects it in the very short term (spiking) but we want to eliminate those services.

The fault doesn't lie with the SQL software or hardware, it lies in our server software. I'm sure you're all used to people blaming the SQL but usually it's our own stuff which kills it the most :D
 

Comments

Avon on 03 November 2005
So, basically you are saying that new hampsters are not the solution? Hmmm...
Benilopax on 03 November 2005
thanks very much for an interesting explination of lag issues. We will stop whining now :-D I wish!
Chribba on 03 November 2005
hope it will be for the greater good.
Startica on 03 November 2005
bah!! too tired to give a usefull response here,, so i guess i'll just say meep!
Xaeon on 03 November 2005
"you can read a number of certified psychologists opionins on that on the forums" Many of us don't need to >:)
Hygelac on 03 November 2005
The Lag presentation at fanfest was fantastic, if just some of those optimizations will get in for RMR then a lot of people will be happier :)
Pi 31415 on 03 November 2005
sorry to post this question here but since the last dev blog has been flooded by winers i have to post this question/idea here (made a post yesterday but it got completly drowned): have you thought about reducing the signature radius of drones as a controll bonus of the ishtar, domi.. instead of increasing their hp? it would be more similar to the current system since it would increase the targeting time and make them tougher, or is there any point im missing?
Skulmar on 03 November 2005
sorry selcted wrong char (pi)
Dak Hakin on 03 November 2005
Ok, I take back anything bad about CCP I may have muttered under my breath. Hell, I dont even use drones!
Fi T'Zeh on 03 November 2005
Once again, despite whatever else we love h8 or whatever about CCP, they are the only company i've come accross who are prepared to try to explain to their player base the why's and wherefores of what they are doing. For that they deserve our continuing respect patience and also man (or girl) love. Thx Oveur.
mahhy on 03 November 2005
Is there no way to make a single system able to utilise multiple CPUs, perhaps across physical nodes? It _sounds_ like a coding issue to me that could be fixed, but I don't know squat bout Eve code obviously, so just kick me if I'm wrong :)
ParMizaN on 03 November 2005
That is one of the most inspiring dev blogs ive ever read: oveur i really wish i cpuld be at the fanfest to meet you in person because your enthusiasm for eve is really incredible :D
DB Preacher on 03 November 2005
Communication > all. Thanks for that Oveur. dbp
Dracorimus on 03 November 2005
Thanks for the info :D
Oveur on 03 November 2005
Mahhy: It's quite possible, but the work required is immense. There are steps inbetween that require "less" coding, like seperating Stations from the solar systems but that wouldn't really help that much in the long run.
Rod Blaine on 03 November 2005
What Fitz said.
Evelyne DeBoissiere on 03 November 2005
Thanks for the extensive explaination Oveur, it's a pleasure reading you and the other devs - as always ;) And get dual-core Opterons if you can ; they give more YARR to the YARRDWARE ! Oh, and now I'm hoping for a devblog related to the removal of instas ! (Maybe make Tuxford post about them ? He should be used to those type of posts by now :P). Thanks again for all the good work :)
swoj on 03 November 2005
/me kicks mahhy just kidding, I don't know about Eve code either, however I would suspect that everything running in a single system would require things to happen in particular orders, so there would be many potential issues with multi-threading a system to operare over multi CPUs. Not to say that they couldn't work it out, however the time it would take to do that could be vastly longer than implementing the solution they are doing - which would mean less time spent on other optimizations which affect the game as a whole rather than just a handful of over crowded systems.
Skulmar on 03 November 2005
could anyone be so kind and try to answer my question about reducing drone sig radius cause it realy bugs me?
Alyssa Keliaster on 03 November 2005
Kudos to Tuxford for bearing the brunt of player wrath once more. And thanks to Oveur for the explanation. I'll admit, I was at the top of the whining tree when the Drone blog went up, but I can see reason when someone takes time to explain. Again want to say >>>>> Many thanks to CCP and esp. Tux/Oveur. for dealing with us bunch of whining feckers<<<<<<
Cavy Dan on 03 November 2005
Wonderful Blog. I will give you money, you will give me EVE.
Fergus Runkle on 03 November 2005
In order to reduce the number of objects in the db how about placing a "time out" on secure cans that get everywhere. If they are not opened once in 2 or 3 months they unanchor and drift into the sun (ie go pop). What about old accounts and all the stuff they have in hangars, should there not be a length of time set before they are deleted completely ?
Tiny Carlos on 03 November 2005
Oveur: I think that there's plenty wrong with the drone change even when you accect the need for drastic reduction in number. Like a Lvl 5 rank 5 skill being needed to maintain DoT or mining on an Imicus at todays levels ;)
Hafthor on 03 November 2005
Good blog. My biggest problem with the drone fix is that I don't trust in CCP's ability to do it right, I would so listen up: Take a good long and hard look at the drone SKILLS you are changing. Mess with the drones themselves as much as you like because in the end they'll get balanced but an important tool of making them balanced is adding new skills for them. With the amount of attributes the drones have I'd think it would be possible to affect more than just damage+more damage+some more damage. Ohhh.. and get Tuxford to do his math properly. He's gonna need to be able to do simple calculations for this. :)
Jak'ai on 03 November 2005
Since you brought it up ;p How come the situation with bookmarks has lasted so long? I know it's a touchy issue, but if they are such a drain (and exploit in some cases) shouldn't they be fixed first thing? FWIW - here's my vote for ripping off the band-aid all at once in RMR. Open a discussion thread, listen to all the suggestions, make a plan, communicate it and get rid of the sodding bookmarks once and for all.
Aurora Tagan on 03 November 2005
Love the little animation you got going there =D , so new YARRDWARE it is then?
Hafthor on 03 November 2005
And I'll buy you and Tuxford a beer if I ever run into you at a bar. Just 'cause I do love the work you're doing.
Quithlar Binay on 03 November 2005
I for one appreciate that you tried non-coercive measures like increasing low-security mission payouts, adding hardware, and simply *asking* pilots to relocate before moving the agents. It seems like half the (non-alt) Federal Navy Academy lives in Oursulaert these days, and won't move, despite several people extolling the vitues of lower-security space. :/ Question: can the agents moving be a made into player event?
Dark Shikari on 03 November 2005
Finally! Thx CCP, I knew you were going to go for moving the agents. Its the biggest, most obvious solution, and it had to be done some time.
Elise Masutra on 03 November 2005
YARRR stop whining!! keep up the GREAT work dear devs. i love this game and love you for doing it the way you think it's best!!!
Jess Tamblyn on 03 November 2005
Thanks for the info Oveur :) Though I think most people understood the need for Drone changes! I like most of the suggested changes and would love new skills and modules, I just think that the Drone carriers\Gallente ships need to be even more specialised then alitle extra hp to keep the difference that exists today.
Kurren on 03 November 2005
Eh, still not crazy about the nerf, but I'll live... but if I get anymore laaaaag I'm gonna be in Iceland opening cans of Whop Arse!!
Oveur on 03 November 2005
Kurren: Of course it won't disappear magically, there a lots of other systems which we need to work on. This should however help quite alot towards less lag.
Hukka on 03 November 2005
Moving agents isnt enough. I am not sure what are your plans with R&D in RMR, but because limited numbers of T2 bpos we have now is one reason why these systems are popular, because these popular systems have most T2 items for sale and people usually rather go to system with all items they need instead keep jumping 20 jumps for each item. Add more T2 bpos and we might see market forming other places than these popular market systems.
Magunus on 03 November 2005
'This brings us to solving the problem in the content, simply by moving the agents around. This is going to cost us a lot of customers...' Just an idea, would it be possible to set a system to have affinity for a particular node and have that node only load that system? Then upgrade only that node to handle the extra load? This would prevent the need for an upgrade of all nodes, and wouldn't require you to move agents. Just an idea, you mentioned that you think moving agents will cause you to lose customers, and if this is feasible, it might overcome the problem.
Qualitan on 03 November 2005
I notice that you repeatedly mention the load on the SQL servers. Are you investigating replacing your SQL server architecture with a higher performance database?
moroti on 03 November 2005
Great info thanks! Only thing there I'm confused on is how moving agents would cost you customers? Its nice to gain an understanding and appreciation of the various optimisations needed/planned rather than just seeing it tacked onto each major change as with the brief sentence in the drones blog ;] Also wondering how much of this is aimed at current tranquility problems or whether its planned optimisations with the anticipated larger user count on the chinese server.
Garia666 on 03 November 2005
So if some GM tells me there is nothing to see on the server side. Or that they only recieved an HI and not the rest of your petittion You just go copy a couple of thousend BM`s and voila.. I realy think you should remove that part of your dev blog.. but hey thats just my 2 cents
Lomong on 03 November 2005
Oveur: And why wouldn't a normal decent threaded model be worthwhile? Easily scales over multiple processors, and isn't very hard or time-consuming to implement, unless you'd have to rewrite your algorithms and queries from scratch. Consult any bank or such to find out how they've done, or any supercomputer center to find out how we implement threaded models even for non-trivial* applications, because it simplifies things. If you want a super-heavy load Windows installation to consult, ask the Lunarstorm admins and developers. It's a Swedish web community that is more or less 100% dynamic code, including calulations. During peak hours, they handle over 140k simultaneous users. *Non-trivial means that the problem is difficult to parallellize because stages depends on each other before work can continue. However, an application such as EVE contains many parts that can easily be parallellized.
George X on 03 November 2005
I can tell this is a person who lovers EVE. On a sidenote I have to repeat Qualitan's question: Are you investigating replacing your SQL server architecture with a higher performance database?
Jenny Spitfire on 03 November 2005
Methinks should have combat and agents totally revamped. Need to limit BMs to 200-300 per character and one way to do it is to redo some of the combat, to make sure people to instas everywhere like mad. Since most combat takes place via warpable objects. Might as well have some user defined x, y (maybe z later?) coordinates to warp to at some user defined range 100km, 200km, 300km, etc. With the above, then introduce some navigation skills to allow the pilot to accurately warp to the desired location. Say 0 km to gate with not so good skills may be cause 5 km to 15km off from the gates. That way, possible to have combat to take place in a system long enough rather than having people jumps everywhere in the system like bunnies. Anyway, interesting blog ;)
Roke E'raith on 03 November 2005
I think it is mentioned otherwise, but I assume you run your blades on Linux. Well, if so, you should look into MOSIX technology. The "single CPU" problem might be easier to solve that way. Check: http://www.mosix.org/ or http://openmosix.sourceforge.net/ . If you are not running Linux on the servers, you might want to rethink that. :) And since you work with IBM, I am sure they are willing to help you with a transition. A visit at Scali might also prove useful. http://www.scali.com/ PS. Linux does not solve ALL problems, but on Intel Servers you get much more out of the hardware. I am not a "linux is da best grunt". But I know how effecient it can be.
DigitalCommunist on 03 November 2005
oh my god, animated blog.. I want to touch you. *touch touch* :|
Speed Burnout on 03 November 2005
Why not make ships warp closer to the gates and bases in 0.5 - 1.0 space. This will make the use of coping bookmarks less in high traffic systems.
Bhaal on 03 November 2005
DEV blogs with animated Oveur art ftw! Oveur, dude, BM's need to go man... I would think that would be a top priority...
Noveron on 03 November 2005
Love ya CCP!
Cyberjack Dogstone on 03 November 2005
quote "Since we're talking about examples, lets not forget bookmarks. We've seen a lot of speculation that they possibly can't be a server load. Well, they sure are. Copying a couple of hundred bookmarks takes serious CPU time on SOL and SQL servers, so take this as a hint. If you're doing thousands, you might be killing a couple of pour soul in combat somewhere." unquote... too much information in there methinks.
DigitalCommunist on 03 November 2005
I think I'll just sit here and stare at Bhaals comment for a while ._.
Toqua on 03 November 2005
Oveur: Thanks for the info. But it's still not making up the hurt for making all 'dullish equalish' (5 drones for all max, switching drones and so on in the current nerfe-case)... put in a nice candy to let the bitternes go down easy. On the BM's case: a) as long as CCP don't have a valid 'equal' for instas with skills and or other helps, like Interbus movements or 'special travel kits', I would NOT suggest to 'remove' them. b) at the current priority BM-Copying works, I doubt very much that it makes any lag. You can see that in high load places BM-Copying is EXTREMELY slow, because the Database has athis on lowest possible priority, if you copy BM's in emptier places, it works better. ad SQL-Server: MSSQL in the current setup (with that RAMSAN-Beast in at critical places) is pretty much the stablest and fastest thing you can get, you can probably pump a bit more out of it by adding more CPU's to the core, but I doubt that it will be marginal. I agree that now a mix of 'better coding', 'optimizing' and (a LOT) of YARRWARE on the Nodeside is probably the only thing CCP can do to bring lag in check. But I still strongly vote for a optimization and recoding run of Agents, Factories, R&D and recoding of the effects, just to give all the angry people to calm down a bit. CCP DID do a bit much nerfing and balancing the last few month...
dazedandconfused on 03 November 2005
I think everyone in the game should copy as many bookmarks as possible at a set time. Think of it, thousands of people all copying thousands of bookmarks all at once, it would be intense! Prepare for Copy Bookmark Day! The end is near! :D
Bhaal on 03 November 2005
"too much information in there methinks." Agreed, now we will have ppl copying BM's by the 1000's in Jita to lag out their enemies... "I think I'll just sit here and stare at Bhaals comment for a while ._." DC, don't worry, I'm not saying remove them with no alternative solution to decreasing travel & added safety. I've not turned to the Dark Side just yet. I still have a few carebear characters on my other accounts I need to look after...
Dragons Rage on 03 November 2005
I read this Blog and I understand their point of view. However, a lot of people have spent a lot of time training drone skills, and Gallente Battleship Skills to get 12+ Drones. Drone Interfacing is a x5 skill, and now the payout for that skill is not worth the time invested it in. The current change will make both of the Gallente Battleships just like all the others, able to fly 5 at once. So why would i fly a dominix with 6 turrets when i could fly a megathron with 7 turrets and 2 launchers? The answer is there is no use for the Dominix anymore. The same logic applys to the Vexor and Thorax. Increased HP and Armor on Drones? No good if you can take them all out with a tech 1 smartbomb as they orbit well within range. Also, a good player can take all 5 out with in 10 seconds with guns. Quote "This brings us to solving the problem in the content, simply by moving the agents around. This is going to cost us a lot of customers," Changing the Drones to 5 max on dedicated Drone Ships will cost you a lot of customers. I have a few suggestions for the lag problem. 1. Remove or greatly reduce the huge missile explosion animations. There really is no need for repeated explosions that takes up most of the screen. 2. Up the drone cap on Dedicated Drone Ships to 10 and limit the amount of Special Drones a player can have in space at one time. 3. Remove the Drone Models, Most players just see the X on the screen anyways. 4. Leave the current drone bays sizes alone and Double the volume of the New Drones. 5. Reduce the number of Drone Complexs.
Engar Anduve on 03 November 2005
I never even thought about BMs being a lag issue, but it makes sense. And I see why that's such a touchy situation. People rely heavily on BMs in low sec space. Kudos once again for explaining everything. I just find it annoying that everyone is all "Thanks CCP for screwing us again" "We love you CCP for explaining things to us" I just wish people would stick with the love part, because we all know you'll explain yourselves, and that you have EVE's best interest at heart.
David Corbett on 03 November 2005
Wow, thanks for the information.
Noriath on 03 November 2005
I still think just reducing the drones is lame, instead they should have been changed so that the entire squad of drones you launch is counted as one NPC...
moroti on 03 November 2005
Is the bookmark lag associated more with copying than using then? What about the possibility of offering a npc corp bookmark duplicating service or something at a cost and a x hour service. Duplication could be scheduled for a low point sometime in the follwing 24 hours or whatever, run as a batch during downtime or offloaded to a less used server, it has the advantage of being another isk sink as well ;]
Burga Galti on 03 November 2005
A picture paints a thousand words. Don't know what that means about animations though... In seriousness, this a good blog and it's the kind that I love to see. Taking the time to explain such things will always work in your favour. That said, this does raise some concern about BMs. Bhaal's comment about lagging out enemies does seem a bit scary, mostly because it is the kind of thing that can be expected from some less honorable players. I don't know much about databases but would it be possible to put a freeze on bookmarks being copyed between players? The ones that exist will continue to exist (for now at least) and new ones can be made, but copying of 1000s at a time can be stopped.
Oveur on 03 November 2005
BM's: You hadn't noticed that copying a couple of hundred bookmarks took a _while_? You didn't think that taking a _while_ means somewhere a resource is unable to do this procedure instantly? :)

Besides, we get emails when that happens. Large item transfers are monitored.

The reason BM's are still in there is that we haven't found an alternative compromise which we're happy with. This has been said a number of times.

Dragons Rage: Domi's, Vexor etc. are still by far the best Drone ships, that's the reason you should use them and they are one of the very few to have multiple waves or alternate waves of drones. Explosions, LOD of drones etc. is all part of the Effects system rewrite.

As clearly stated in the blog, costing customers to do something righ is not stopping us, we just prefer doing a number of alternative (like we did with agents) before forcing it. I certainly hope you are not suggesting we treat drone users in other ways than we do agent runners or manufacturers? :)
The Wizz117 on 03 November 2005
missiles? when are you goin to fix the missiles? they aint done yet...
Sha Dar on 03 November 2005
Regarding coporations moving locations from the exremely busy systems, how about a little enticement... eg... Problem - Corp A has thousands of items in hangars, and it's players have thousands more, spread across members hangars in the station. Seeing how many hauls it would take to move, plus reorganising, re-hiring offices, re-setting access etc, decide Meh, too much hassle. Solution - Offer a service - Via a specific GM or DEV with the right knowledge and power, to move all said items and access over, in one go, keeping lockdown setting etc, intact, to a station in a quiter system of the corp's choice. Almost all the associated hassle is removed and the corp has lost a MAJOR reason not to move. Feasible ?
Sanaen Eydanwadh on 03 November 2005
mmmmhh Yarrdware? really? (I didn't understand anything - but thanks for the pic ^^)
Oveur on 03 November 2005
Sha Dar: We would love to, the problem is the coding required for enabling a full moval like that and of course requiring an extra office at the new location (and you still have all the personal items of corp members left)
BillyBong2 on 03 November 2005
Dragon's Rage: You need to read all of the information on the Drone changes. The other Battleships will have less then 5 drones out. With the drone bay being halved. Apoc will go down to 3 Heavies max, or 5 Mediums.
Kaotic on 03 November 2005
If BM's cause that much of a lag problem, could you not add closer "warp to" distances like 5k and 10k? This would eliminate the need for 95% of BM's at least. Maybe even make it skill related. I don't see that this would change gameplay in a drastic manner.
BillyBong2 on 03 November 2005
As a small corp starting I moved us from everyone. We are actually near a warzone, 2 jumps from OBE in the Oimmo system. We are producing aslmost as fast as we are selling. I looked at the profit margins, in the hub system the profits ranged from 7% to 15% on margin. In my system now, I start at a minimum of 38% up to over 200% on some modules. Just move. It is not that hard. My system has research labs, office space, factoires, decent belts, like 20 of them, near .3 and .4 system, level 3 agents, Cloning...everything.
Sha Dar on 03 November 2005
Yes, I thought it would be difficult. Not knowing how the info is stored, I was just trying to sound out a way to aid in the moving that's all rather than it being a bind, or seen as a "too much hassle, not bother thanks" from the corps/players. Maybe give a customer support type person an UBER oversized, fast, Freighter and have them pilot it when the corp has filled it. :)
NoWeR on 03 November 2005
Great bloq as allways, Just came to me an idea for the BM's: I didnt read all the ideas so apologise if its allready stated. Skills, 10% each lvl rank 5, at lvl 5 50% distance from 15km cut so its 7,5km, and then a second skill, 1 for region. eg, Genesis traveling skill rank 5? 7,5% reduction, meaning that at lvl5 u can istatravel on the region u are specilized. U want to inta in the region u are based, train skill, u wanna attack another region? train the skill. wow its my day!!, second idea on the air, use the same idea as dreads, they use stronium, u use another mineral or something each jump + a mod that consumes it, no combustible = 15 km to the gate. Ideas to be worked on :)
Verlan on 03 November 2005
Well, Oveur, I raise you my hat. Your explanation has tempered me. The reason we get all excited at times demonstrates how much we love this game and how addicted we are. After reading the 35 pages of the forum on the drone change (I'm a drone lover) I think the change won't be so bad. The only thing I'd like is for the Dom to have the same mining drone power as before. Drone bonuses might not make sense on a BS to some, but some cruisers have it (Osprey...) and I think that in all fairness the Dom should have one just to keep things equivalent to what they were before. Anyhow, thanks for your patience and like I said, I get excited because I love this game :-) (and my drones!).
Summersnow on 03 November 2005
"This brings us to solving the problem in the content, simply by moving the agents around. This is going to cost us a lot of customers, but we're still going to do it because at this point in time, it's the only way." I'm curious as to how your legal department reacts to you admiting in a dav blog that you intend to deliberatly sabotage the game for a "lot of customers" You see, this is a pay to play game that involves a significant investment in time & money & while your EULA doubtlessly has the standard "online gameplay may change" blah blah bullshit its still always understood that the fundamental nature of the game will not change and I'm thinking if you are planning something you know will cause that many cancelations you are changing something findamental to the game, and since you are doing it deliberatly, it should pose a liability issue to CCP. It also occurs to me that moving the agents should not result is such a mass cancelation unless you plan on doing it wrong ( I am assuming forced pvp via movement of agents into low security only ) It occurs to me perhaps the problem isn't entirely location but number of agents as well and perhaps the better approach would be a move & split option. i.e. if agent xyz is being used by 500 people, split the load into two systems by adding a second agent and relocating both onto a different clusters and giving half the people ( keep in mind to check faction to make sure they can get to the new agent thank you ) a "dear Summersnow, I've had to relocate but please go see my friend tinkerbell in such & such system, She'll ( chicks rule ) have all of your points all safe and sound and here's a small "relocate bonus" to ease your troubles.
TornSoul on 03 November 2005
A dev blog doesnt get much better than this I think. Thank you Oveur.
Andouus La on 03 November 2005
One thing I like is that CCP got friking human and gave an simple opinion. As of fucking whining, peeps whine cuz there is a fucking problem. Usually giving out information like this fucking solve the whole fucking problem does it not? Thanks for the much appreciate simple honest answer.
Andouus La on 03 November 2005
oups thaught f*** would be censored sry my bad...
Sha Dar on 03 November 2005
Valium much ?
Aelku on 03 November 2005
Thanks for your clarification. Still... Others MMOs are using the nerf bat for the "good of the game". One good thing of EVE is its "time-based" skill-up. When big changes like the ones proposed are done, it become the worst thing. Months of training appears wasted when the changes ruins your playstyle. So, when others MMOs are doing big changes, they often offer "respec" (one time re_allocation of skills). Why not?
Andouus La on 03 November 2005
Where is the edit option :( Disregard that comment and read "One thing I like is that CCP got friking human and gave an simple opinion. As of the whining, peeps whine cuz there is a problem. Usually giving out information like this solve the whole problem does it not? Thanks for the much appreciate simple honest answer." My complete apologies to anywhone who got this sad post.
TotensBurntCorpse on 03 November 2005
ok, Agent moves i can see but that only moves the load to a new hot spot, why not make more agents of similar quality and level in similar locals (ie if rens gets used alot then post similar agents in other systems of equal sec status in similar map sec terrain) Drones numbers reduction is ok I guess but in reality I dont use drones much myself but if reducing the average players number of objects by about 16% is a big push then do it (numbers based upon 8 turrents giving 8 effects with 9 vs 5 drones ie 25 objects vs 21 on your hull). So does this mean a missle nerf is comming again ??? Or does a longer range battle with missles in the air not count as objects in the SQL ??? Cuz if this was the case then torpedo equipt ravens should be crashing the system. Factories I think should run one big batch that you cannot abort and all ingredients are consumed up front and all product is dumped out at the end of the entire production run. BM's well if your gonna do such a radical change to missles then drones then why not just make warp ins 1-5km as a setting and eliminate bookmarks altogether. I think most PvPers would sound off by bascially agreeing that most combat is OUTBOUND from a gate not INBOUND, so elimination of BM's shouldnt really hurt PvP at all really. BM's only help the prepared, if you have em u have an advantage if you dont ur at in some cases a fatal disadvantage. At the risk of being flamable I would suggest CCP just nuke instas rather the muck with game code for new features and effects given the last "improvements" still arent finished.
Leos Klein on 03 November 2005
I'd like to thank CCP for taking the time to explain how things work to their customers. No other MMO has been this customer-friendly to my knowledge. I've bounced around from MMO to MMO for years, always with very little interaction from devs and people in the know. With this kind of customer service, y'all will do fine. I know for sure that come what may, I'll be playing EVE :)
Adam C on 03 November 2005
Escrow bookmarks are now representing* a new type of eve spam. Its good in theory, however isnt the lag far too serious. If its causing pvpers to lock up? (soz, if its been brought up in previos reply i havent read them all)
Ginger Magician on 03 November 2005
Yes but u have caused this lag yourself by placing too many highly productive agents in safe space with the result that 0.1 to 0.4 is empty and there r far too many stupidly easy npcs cluttering things up as u said yourself.Dont blame the players blame the game rules.Players will only do what gives them the most reward for the lowest possible risk that is obvious.There is really a simple solutuion to these problems if a rather radical one.Remove all level 3 and 4 agents from 1.0 to 0.5 space and secondly remove all drones from the game and let people reallocate their skillpoints - u can work some compensation for the drone bpo holders too im sure.In a single stroke u have removed 50% of the players from safe space - maybe some might leave the game but the end result would surely be worth some temporary loss of numbers which u cant cope with right now anyway.
Calio on 03 November 2005
Thanks for the explanation. I understand the problem and I sympathize with your attempts to find a solution. But, it seems to me that CCP is consistently working at cross purposes. You want to do things in the context of your game vision that are at cross purposes to the constraints imposed by the single shard mmorpg model. An obvious example is the long-term proposal to make higher level agent missions require group. Yet, in order to keep the game operating at some minimal level of functionality, you have to scatter agents (and along with them players), making it even more difficult to find a group (most people aren't playing with their 3 RL friends, who all log in together)!!!! If you want grouping, then learn to live withe crowded systems. If you want to spread the server load, accept that your vision of the game may have to accomodate realities of hardware constraints. If you keep trying to have it both ways, this fix will just create more (new problems), and so on.
FalloutBoy on 03 November 2005
YARR-dware? sounds like something to boost pirating \o/ sorry couldn't resist
Andouus La on 03 November 2005
Since I totally screwed up here I'll amend myself and give some really positive ideas. The bookmarks are noticably creating lag. There is a problem and this should be fixed and everybody in the game should put some water in their wine on this. Bookmarks are usefull of alliances going tru territorys they dont control (ie. Kerbertz entrance gate for instance). Minors use them because barges are slow to get from one point of mining to the station. Traders use them for going tru unsafe low sec. Corps use them to go from one office to the other. I vote on deleting the bookmarks all togheter. Working navigation is'nt the end of the world. This would really hurt mining barges. Could there be a tweaking done on the propulsion system of the barges be done so they would be faster? As of alliances well, work your navigation routes and protection systems. Corps can reorganise their allocation of ressources and optimise their displacements. There are no bounderies on how you can work displacements in eve. Mwd exists, afterburners and related skills are there to optimize displacements of ships. I vote on the idea of getting rid of them. They make slow and boring anyway for peeps that are doing pvp. Thus this would force peeps to work their combats skills and lead to more interesting engagements. Advanced tech 2 industrials are there for a purpose as of trading goes. I see more solutions already in the game then continuing with the actual laggy bookmarking system.
Oz Draconis on 03 November 2005
Good stuff! Love the info!!!
Andouus La on 03 November 2005
Errrr An idea popped. Maybe a skill for navigation related to barges and industrials ships giving an 5% increase in velocity to industrial and mining barges. Commercial navigation skill. 5% increase in velocity to industrial and mining barges per level.
TotensBurntCorpse on 03 November 2005
Since warp in can be chosen now why not make a skill that runs the 15km drop in down to 1km at level V, since skills are a lagg solution proposed for drones why not by extention do a skill set for warping circular error. Higher the skill the less the error, but make warp to gang member perfect. ie <1km circular error. Also, CAN YOU PLEASE delete all cans from >0.7 sec space PLEAAASSSSEEE this has to reduce server load somewhat. Also, could you consider a timer on abandoned equipment in space (similar to jet cans timers), ie if unused for x days/weeks the device pops or unanchors. Again there is alot of abandoned space junk out there that needs to be cleansed from the data base.
TotensBurntCorpse on 03 November 2005
sorry meant delete "anchored" cans from >0.7 space since they are a hang over from early last year. FREE OUR RESOURCES NOW !!!!! (wanders off with a plaque demanding useless and currently impossible to place objects be deleted to free up server resources)
Time Killer on 03 November 2005
Heh heh - so some lag spikes are coz someone's duping their BMs? That's funny... and kinda sad at the same time.
Mitawyn on 03 November 2005
Oveur, I think I love you. And I am real life filly. ;p Anyhoo, thank you for taking the time to explain this in terms I could comprehend. I do enjoy reading your blogs and your timely, not to mention pithy, comments on the forums. Ya'll do a great job!
Dragons Rage on 03 November 2005
"Dragons Rage: Domi's, Vexor etc. are still by far the best Drone ships, that's the reason you should use them and they are one of the very few to have multiple waves or alternate waves of drones. Explosions, LOD of drones etc. is all part of the Effects system rewrite. " LOD = ? Also multiple waves of drones still do not make up for 5 getting killed an a few seconds due to SBs.
Somatic Neuron on 03 November 2005
Oveur, that still don't explain why the drone bay sizes need to be cut so much. What is wrong with having tons of drones available. Three waves of drones is not what I would call an impressive drone ship. Give them five or 7 or some such. How about as a compromise, you put in a skill to increase drone bay size (ala Industrial cargo expansion for Racial Industrial skill level) or Ship Equipment (Drone Bay Expanders) or both. Allows for more customization, and allows players to give up one thing to gain another.
Dragons Rage on 03 November 2005
actually we are giving up 2 things. Drones and Drone Bay. But a skill to increase Drone Bay is a GREAT idea Somatic Neuron
Andouus La on 03 November 2005
Made some ideas brainstorm lol Trading could get a real boost with a new fast frigate. Some peeps in the game dont do pvp and used the vigil minmatar frigate to sell stuff from one place to the other. Maybe a civilian frigate. No high slots, good cargo, fair tanking, numerous low slots to fit either cargo expanders or warp core stabilisors. Maybe a related skill like Fast delivery skill. 5% increase in velocity to civilian frigates. Even have a tech 2 civilian frigate with bonuses you have on the transport ships with a +2 warp bonus for adventurous traders that would dare replenish 0.0 market. Anyway just ideas to replace the bookmarking system. Sincere (again) apologies for my previous dum post. :(
EvilDoomer on 03 November 2005
Oveur great explaination. And as a whinner of ecm and others things And as a programmer I do understand and want to think you for taking the time to go indetails. If means alot to us. I might still whine but atleast I know whats going one. CCP does a good job and the programmers are awesome. Pat pat. :)
Deric on 03 November 2005
Hey Oveur thanks for posting that graphic. I used to try and explain to people that there are lots of different kinds of lag and lots of different places it can crop up but recently I've decided it's quite hopeless. Lomong I have no idea where you got the idea that threading isn't very hard or time consuming to implement. Threading is inherently difficult to test for correctness and many bugs are intermittant and fantastically difficult to replicate, inter-processor threading only increases the potential for errors. Actually getting a performance boost out of threading is another order of difficulty altogether and sometimes verges on programing mysticism. Threading for web servers is actually some of the most straightfoward threading you can do and even the 'standard model' of server threading has undergone significant shifts in the past 5 or 10 years from straight 1 thread per client to task oriented threading to keep the total number of threads down.
Magunus on 03 November 2005
Race condition 4tl!
Alex Striker on 03 November 2005
I agree, Thanks a lot Oveur. Why dont you guys budget monthly towards just hardware? And after awhile just splurge a few mil on some duel-core opterons for the select heavy load CPUs, and some massive RAM.
Malrock on 03 November 2005
Moving agents... yeah, right. So instead fixing the problem you are gonna to postpone it... You want to fix agents? Make them workable from any system, gamers wont need to grind new agents as they shift in unvierse, hotspot systems will disolve and agent runners will be happy to work for theyr agents from new homes - wherever they are, simple, elegant, works.
Lomong on 03 November 2005
Deric: It's based on my years of working with clusters and supercomputers, programming both at application and system level(drivers etc), as well as some MUD programming. What you neglect in your list of things is what I pointed out: Some problems are easily broken into threads while others are not. Much of EVE falls into the earlier category. And no, it doesn't verge on programming mysticism, unless you were never taught how to use it(Of course, if you use POSIX threads, you'll have some issues too, but that's because of POSIX specs, not threading itself). As I pointed out to Oveur: Contact some banks or some supercomputer centers if you want to see it in use for real.
Claude Leon on 03 November 2005
Well, I must say. I do feel like a total idiot now. Oveur, I will apologize. I wish there was still a way to keep the drones at the current state. Oh, well.
grendels arm on 03 November 2005
First mistake. Using SQL Server.
Victor Mason on 03 November 2005
I wonder how many Seti work unit that server could do in the 1 hour downtime each day???
Furious Raccoon on 03 November 2005
One of the best dev blogs ever. So cool to see all the changes coming down the pike that will make this an even greater game.
Karash Amerius on 03 November 2005
"In CCP we Trust" (I would have used Oracle or IBM personally)
konys on 03 November 2005
hey there, as i get it the servers get to do all the massive work.... I D E A TATA !!!! instead of making the servers do all the work which is well MASSIVE cuz u have so many clients making reuqests no wonder lag occurs... isnt there a way to make the clients work a bit more without reducing performance on the clients... i mean for exampke im able to run 3 clients on my laptop and all of them have like 40fps each all running at max resolution and stuff... kinda like seti@home, give some clients the work when i dont know some1 is mining or idle or well not doing alot so there is spare capacity... i dont know maybe u guys think that that would be to troubleshooting cuz of hacks attemps or whatever.... I D E A NR. 2 ! ! ! maybe crazy i dont know but ill throw out there.... like set@home u could make a small programs which basicly i dont know helps the cluster work...kinda like during the nigh let the geeks"all in this game are geeks otherwise they wouldnt be playing" run this program while asleep or at work or whatever and it helps the server.....for this u could i dont know give them in return....some ppl elaborating X amount of data gets so much isk or reduction of payments for eve or a T-shit or Quafe or whatever dunno....lemme know what ya think....
Snake Jankins on 03 November 2005
Thanks again for the good information politics, probably the best in the mmog buisiness. After reading this, I agree to Lomong that some parallism would be desirable, so that the systems like Rens could be handled by multiple cpus. But I have no idea if it's possible without investing months of work until we have a stable software again and also if it has the effect. I have no idea what jobs a SOL server has exactly to do, I only see that there can be hundreds of (moving) pilots in the same space interacting with eachother or with even more hundreds of objects (npcs/astroids/cans...), obviously you can't distribute all these pilots to 5 different machines without 'some' communication overhead. Well, since I don't know the system, but the devs do, I think it's best to have some trust that they do what's best for the game.
Vang Vorkain on 03 November 2005
lolrof...dam there are alot of you players that fear change! like oveur said the drone thing is done and going in! get over it and move on and learn a new tactic. so you have 2 option you can do. 1 learn how to deal with the new changes or 2 QUIT!
maniago on 03 November 2005
I see a couple of things wrong with this explanation. 1 you've put bookmarks into the game to be used, and then you say not to use them. 2 I guess i pay for the right to pay for a lag game, instead of CCP realizing that there is a problem and trying to correct it. Customer service has reached an ultimat high
Ranger 1 on 03 November 2005
Dragons Rage. LOD means Level of Detail, or using less detailed models as your point of view gets further from the drone in this case. In most cases, you'll be packing the same firepower (or more)in that smaller drone bay... along with more reserve waves of drones for the drone specific ships. Your drones will last longer against a smartbomb than they do now. If it now takes out say 4 blasts of a smartbomb to destroy ALL of your drones, it will take 6 or 8 blasts to destroy them after the changes... as they individually will have more hitpoints. Needless to say, that is more time your drones have to do damage before destruction... AND drone carriers will have a couple of FULL waves of reserves to send into the fray as well.
Techyon on 03 November 2005
Great read, and one of the best blogs ever. I'm glad CCP communicates with the community so much, it's one of the things that seperates eve from other large mmo's. Furthermore I think the optimizations being done are good, and nerf teh bm's ! but find another way of travel first :P
Iraf Thaiberd on 03 November 2005
yay for drunk producers :)
Deric on 03 November 2005
Lomong: I have to admit, I am but a lowly graduate student, but I think the contention is the definition of mysticism we were using, If it can't be accurately modeled, predicted, or at the very least validated by machine, it's mysticism. NASA sponsors tools to analyze and validate threaded Java programs, but right now they choke on anything bigger than a few hundred lines of code. Second, and I am actually curious given your superior experience, given that the problem is that a single system can't be split over multiple CPUs and we've been told that the market and chat services have already been moved to other CPUs, and that moving station functionality to another CPU would not be sufficient (so for purposes of this discussion I'm discounting stations and their services) that pretty much leaves 'in space' functionality. Other than the possibility of assigning different grids within the same system to different CPUs (which might actually be a lot of work to code properly itself, and according to the addendum, is.) I can't think of any 'in space' functionality that appears easily paralellizable. What were you thinking of?
Snake Jankins on 03 November 2005
btw you mentioned network lag and packet loss. Don't know if you meant the internet or the network your solservers are connected and communication through. I once read a paper about a mosix game cluster. They improved network latency by using stochastic fairness queuing (SFQ) for the packets. But I must admit a have no idea how professional servers are connected and if eve suffers from such problems. ( I only use traffic shaping on our gateway that I'm able to play in peace with low latency while the others download like mad. hehe )
Lee N on 04 November 2005
Oveur: .. A small Suggestion: Why not limit the amount of characters that you can name a Secure Container with? 10-15 characters should be enough for most naming conventions. Not only would this mean less data for the server to keep track of, it should also make people alot less prone to use them to advertise with. .. another alternative is to only make the names of containers visible to people in your own corp or alliance, this would make it pretty much impossible to advertise with containers. .. oh, and please try to do something about the problem with logging on to myeve. It no longer work in either Opera or Firefox for me, so I had to post this with Internet Explorer.
Phoenixhawk on 04 November 2005
First, Thanks for the Info and Sharing it with us, rather than just saying we are nerfing this that and the other now. Just remember, Adding things and slight changes dont tend to piss of the customers as much as taking away things people paid money for to train to be able to do
Jacque Sparrow on 04 November 2005
I would recommend high-end 64-bit Dual Core Systems with as much RAM per server as possible for SOL servers and SQL Server 2005 to help take care of the SQL performance also running on 64-bit Multi-CPU Servers, say a minimum of 4-way or 8-way servers for SQL Server 2005.
Ottman on 04 November 2005
you will search another option to reduce lag, dont nerfe the drones, reducing their numbers or anything else making them obsolent, everyone who is taking part in eve as miner need drones as defensive weapon system, and as flexible weapons system of course, and as effective, because its the only defensive option miners have. sentry drones are not an option, to unflexible. starting drones, taking care of a threat and returning "home" to the ship. there are other ways to reduce lag, find them ! MfG Ottman
flummox on 04 November 2005
sweet. sounds like a lot of fun. can't wait for RMR... oh, uh, when you say 'drones' above, do you mean "mission drones" and "faction drones" and "pirate drones"; or are you talking about ogres and warriors??
Gonada on 04 November 2005
thanx for an interesting read
Mack Dorgeans on 04 November 2005
I agree that anchored cans that sit around are a pain, especially in the already high-traffic systems. Put a timer on them for a month or two, and kill any that already exist owned by players whose accounts are inactive. How about complexes? Frankly, they have marginal value to me. Most of the time when I visit one on a lark, I can't find a key to get into the deeper pockets, yet scans show there are NPCs out there just having a smoke. Other times, they are camped anyway, so I could probably count on one hand the number of times when I've actually gotten past the front room of a complex. Seems to me rogue drone plexes are even less valuable than the pirate ones. What's so awful about putting rare faction drops in mission or belt rats rather than encouraging camping? It's nice now to run into a faction rat in a belt when you weren't expecting it -- a fun bonus that's unpredictable. Then there are COSMOS complexes. I don't see why CCP would be looking at COSMOS as a major form of new content when it's more camped complexes and busy systems to lag down the system with. Why concentrate people into systems or constellations like that? Besides, competitive camping isn't particularly fun. Why not instead spawn COSMOS-like stuff as normal agent missions spawn, or maybe spread out hacking/archaeology targets across the galaxy rather than in static locations? People do like exploration, and some would even fit a profession module on their ship during normal mission running or ratting if they knew there was a chance they might run into something interesting. Seems to me fewer (or no) static complexes and more variety and uncertainty with hack/arch spawning and faction loot drops would equal more fun and less lag-inducing campground snoozefests.
ChronoLynx on 04 November 2005
I know how to Fix the lag from billions of BMs, it is simple. Make it so you can warp to something at 5km or less and there will be very little or no use for BMs anymore for 'Gate to Gate'ing. Forcing people to leave systems would also help with the lag quite a bit, or having more systems to start in would fix some of it. Make it so each bloodline has multiple systems they start can start in, and allow them to choose at the begining. Letting less trial players on the server, I don't know what the current cap is but lower it a little bit. Can I think of anything else to help not lag the server as much... hmm... Well, moving agents a bit would help, or allow an agent to be accessed from more then once system, say for a level IV allow people to go 4 jumps away in the same region and use it from another station of the same Corperation. This is just my 2 cents on the idea, o, and don't nerf the drones plz! My Missiles can't kill frigs and I don't need the drones being nerfed too... :| Don't change them, only make the new ones take more cargo :P
ChronoLynx on 04 November 2005
Nice Diagram BTW! :P
Mah Kraah on 04 November 2005
i cant belive that ppl still complain about the reduced drohne number. "why using a domi if it can use only 5 drohnes???" coz this 5 drohned do 33% more dammage than the 5 in a phoon, other bs cant even fit 5 in bay. bevore u had 33% more drohnes now u have 33%more dammage.what did u used ur more drohnes for? to deal dammage to ur target. got the point? " whiy using multiple waves when sb kill the 5 within secondes?" damn, think about that, smartbombs kill drohnes and they need not one second more or less if u have 5 or 15, its just cheaper for u losing 5 instead of 15 at once. u will have 5 drohnes that do as much dammage as the 15 do now, this 5 will survive longer to smatbombs than the 15 do atm(HP increase). "why cutting drohne bay by half? coz we need less drohnes used to adress lag, u get tougher drohnes instead, in the end u do roughly the dot u do now by using less drohnes at once-> reduced lag. the drohne thread is big if u complain about the reduced numbers u must have missed some info, reread it, if u still think u have a seriouse reason to complain about the reduced drohne numbers, read it again, problem still not solved? stop blaming the devs for ur own restricted ability to understand written text. (found a typo or 10? keep them)
Kuolematon on 04 November 2005
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!! CANCEL ACCOUNT RABBLE RABBLE!! BAD CCP RABBLE! RABBLE!!! ... Uuh yeah. How about rest of people who doesn't know about forums OR dev blogs or simply don't read em (There were like 90% of players who were like "O_o" when missile nerf hit). You have to get your message to everyone. How about including this to ingame news? So people would RABBLE less and you wouldn't lose so many customers when you move agents around (Just leave my agent alone, you can move others ;))
Malrock on 04 November 2005
One more note on agents; while toying with anarchy online it came to me as nice surprise that they have 2 classes of missions; 1) - single player 2) - team, now why ccp cant include this, for example i run agent missions when my corp mates arent around but we also like to do group missions, in current situation it's eather almost impossible to do em solo or the payoff is crap for a team, so both elements suffer, i'd say time to make the game know weather you want to do mission solo or in a team.
unit01 on 04 November 2005
Thanks oveur. Really great being subscribed to a game where the gm's though tyrannical and 3vil still put a friendly face on their superweapon nerfbat :) Just a question though re the drone change. Will 5 be the new max of drones in space for any ship? if so will the carrier only have 5 drones ever coming out of it? will the domi and other drone ships have spare capacity to launch more drones when their initial volley is popped? The relocation of agents to more unused systems imho would be the greatest single balancer out there. Sure corps will still have their offices in the busy systems now but as time goes by more and more people will relocate to their agent systems.
Maecki on 04 November 2005
Relocating agents might take off some load of the top solar systems, but there still remains the attractivity of these by the sheer presence of tons of players: - market is filled with goods - chat is specatcular - camping and battling happens there since most foes go through them So I think you'd better look for other solutions too. Most probably some 'inner clustering' within a solar system will be required when player count rises further (AMD or Intel just can't go your growth rates ;-). Techniques exist in technical computing for years now, that allow to build so called class-2 clusters apart from 'normal' networks (PCI-sharing, myrinet, etc.). Well, I think you know your options better than I do. Thanks for the transparence towards the community in eve and for the passion with which you do your business!!
Mindlles on 04 November 2005
Nice one. Thx for so much intel =)
Blanca on 04 November 2005
Thank you for your vast explanation Oveur, we really neede it. Why don't u try to remove BM's, move agents, put a time on unused cans or remove them,remove old accounts, update hardware or other methods to reduce lag u might know and leave this option "changing drones" as the last resort, in this way we have the chance to save drones - a big part of the game that adds an important flavor. Please take this into consideration, thank you!
Evil Pyr0 on 04 November 2005
Blanca, did you not read the blog fully? It was stated that moving agents would be in RMR. Which is about a month away \0/. Also it was stated that they are looking into better hardware. Read carefully before you post, please. Thanks for explaining it all Oveur, hopefully this will remove some of the whining you guys at CCP are getting.
Necroth on 04 November 2005
maybe its possible to make dynamic threads. i mean you should be able to dynamically move CPU and RAM charge from on system to another one. if the CPU needed to run a large fleet battle in a low sec system is too high, well just fork SQL request to other less charged content SQL servers.
Oveur on 04 November 2005
Necroth: We have SOL and SQL. The former is an application server (SOL being the name for 'sun') and the latter is the SQL database. The load balancing has got nothing to do with the SQL.
Tyrrax Thorrk on 04 November 2005
Totally awesome blog. Thanks.
Ranschoeten on 04 November 2005
You can find anyone, anywhere, to back up any theory, if it will back up the point of view *you* wish to defend. I can wrap a duck in wool, give it alligator boots, a gucci handbag, and a jaunty beret. It's still a duck. This post, while providing a pretty picture for people who can't understand words, is just a lot of window dressing to try and deflect from the fact that the coming change is a *nerf*. "Let's eliminate the major highways, that'll fix lag". Yeah. Now I see lists saying "Systems under stress from heavy traffic" or some similar nonsense. Wasn't that supposed to be *fixed* by your removal of the major Empire Highway problem? Well, that didn't work. "Let's take out the drones next." Which, you don't see me arguing, lessening the drones *in space* will certainly aid in that regard a degree. As another person mentioned - please remove all rogue drone complexes then, because those can field quite a few lag-producing little buggers as well.(and I *love* those complexes, great mineral resources) Reduction of the dronebay? That's 100% nerf. The argument about reducing waves is pointless. As I could only field X drones before, my bay size doesn't change my firepower capacity, just the time between having to dock and come back out with a fresh batch. It's a nerf. Nothing but. If things being hauled in my ship is a lag producing event, then you should look more broad-spectrum. Reduce the cargo capacity in general of all non-industrial ships. That will cut down on a lot more potential crap in motion, if that's the cause.
El Berto on 04 November 2005
I'm not going to comment on the software/yaarware developements, you obviously are going to know more and will be looking at developing the reliable load dependant hardware abstraction. It seems to me the geography of the eve universe is causing the real problem. The bottleneck systems are mostly on major trade routes and routes between systems, as such are always going to cause more traffic. Perhaphs its time to 'discover' some new systems and build bypasses (that cut out a couple of jumps between regions) and move some NPC resources there. Or congestion charging :O It's kind of cool in a way, the imagined geography of computer program reaches out and causes real world problems- another reality blead. Thanks for the hard work and actually bothering to tell us what you are doing. Now on to the inacuracies of the warp gfx... :P
mufasa73 on 04 November 2005
hell, i dont even know what your talking about, but geez it sounds good, keep up the good work :0
HighlanderUK on 04 November 2005
Oveur/Tux - thanks for making things a lot clearer. Any chance that SQL 2005, if your not already using it, may makes life easier for you especially if you go down the dual core 64bit avenue (AMD rocks!!). I believe the new HP Proliants have awesome dual core CPU's. Also as other have mentioned, inc myself, kill the BM's alltogether (give us skills to fly closer to gates) - that would result in immediate effect, and no poor soul will die in combat while we copy our BM collections...:)
BlackSabbath on 04 November 2005
why not move agents to systems that use less cpu and are still empire? do you need 5 lvl3 or 4 agents in a single system?
Amataras on 04 November 2005
I have no idea what any of this means :)
000Hunter000 on 04 November 2005
hehe, thats what u get, if u don't do anything about the lag ur B@st@rds, if u do something about the lag, ur still b@st@rds, if u ever find a way to satisisfy everyone u can stop working for a buncha ungratefull sobs (us players) and get rich the easy way ;) But chances are EVE is not only a job but also a conviction, so u have to be (slightly) crazy to work there :D Anyways, time we (the players) start to be a bit more positive towards CCP (yes yes i know thats hard, and whining is so much easier) For now i can only say, GOOD JOB CCP!!! p.s. Raven dronebay must remain the same after the drone chances u B@ST@RDS!!! (that was a whiningjoke btw)
Elroy Cruise on 04 November 2005
Learn and have fun in one move. Great log. Heavy bookmark maker/user here, and drone maniac, still can't wait for the nerf on BMs that would throw another spoon of goodness to server punch. Please keep a bonus (1-2/lvl) on drones in space for the Moros ; I suspect the lag won't be that bad (fairly uncommon ship, operates only in low sec, non crowded systems). ...yes, even in battles I don't expect fleets of 10+ moroses to be a common sight. Oh, and BTW, is there any predictive kinda trick in the works to track moving blobs and make sure they get the CPU they need (aka single system) when in otherwise barren areas ? Just curious. :)
Nadec Ascand on 04 November 2005
*whine about explanation with packet loss on it* hum im from a big provider (no not speacking about 10mb lan...) we afford a no loss product... so u must be speacking about our (eve users) loss? maybe if u switch the limit to 5 drone / ship like u want to but leave the +1 extra drone to drone specialist ship it could be good... (ishtar and dominix have to stay drone poweruser btw they are made for after all) this will leave dominix/ishtar user happy and cut by many ur cpu usage... (im not expecting a 20+ dominix fleet battle ^^ )
Brolly on 04 November 2005
Yey, another great informative pos, ccp ftw! I'm gonna jump on the secure can bandwagon and agree to the whole "if not used within 3 months or less, kill zem all" Alternatively you could increase jet can size so less are used *hint* *hint* ;) Keep up the good work
Sanky on 04 November 2005
Evil Pyr0: u didn't read Blanca's post carefully, pls do it next time: She said that maybe CCP should try all other methods out there to reduce lag (which they said they will) before this method - changing drones cause in this way there is a chance to eliminate lag, maybe there will not be necessaire to change drones if all other methods are applied. I personally think that BM's and cans create a much larger lag than drones which are far more important for the game. And leave the whiners alone - maybe they care about this game more than you guys who maybe be noobs.
Savyor on 04 November 2005
Couple of suggestions to solve lag problems... 1. Probably been suggested before, but a simple solution to reduce lag from BM's would be to remove the ability to copy them altogether. If you want a BM for a mining spot, loot can, or for travel purposes, you need to physically make it yourself! That will: a) cut down on the number being made since it won't as easy as copying them right from your P&P, and b) certainly cut down on the Escrow BM spammers too, thereby reducing a big chunk of database resources as well. 2. Why not start an entire new solar system (ie. create another server to log into)? If you are already considering the possibility to "simply replace all the damn hardware" then hey, why not have a new set running a "new solar system"? There are many new(er) players that wouldn't mind either starting over on a clean server or perhaps take the opportunity to transfer an existing char. over to a new one. I know I would consider it.
Savyor on 04 November 2005
Oh, I am also in favor of squashing secure cans if not accessed in a certain period of time. Same could be said for drones that are floating around waiting for their master to come pick them up!
POTUS on 04 November 2005
KANE !!!!!!
TotensBurntCorpse on 04 November 2005
is it possible to be given a guesstimate of what server load is caused by what objects??? IMHO I would think that there are far more abandoned anchored cans out there than active drones in space at any time. Same could be said for abandoned shuttles and rookie ships littering systems needlessly. Ban bookmarks they make eve universe too small.
Deja Thoris on 04 November 2005
Great blog <3
Destroyer Draxx on 04 November 2005
U didnt have to explain this n yet u did. Good stuff m8 :))
Takitoo on 04 November 2005
/me dies from Techslang. I feel somehow smarter, but I can't put my finger on it. I'm glad that CCP is like ... smart ... and stuff. Cause I'm not.
Skarn Lonewolf on 04 November 2005
Oveur, I would like to know if you are exploring the use of the PhysX processor from [url="http://www.ageia.com/"]http://www.ageia.com/[/url] either server-side or in the client. Is the technology promising for Eve ? Can we expect it to appear some day in Eve ? Thanks
Haas Tabris on 04 November 2005
Devs, a few ideas for you, premise is to reduce the number of calculations the CPU's need to do as well as the number of "things" being tossed around between servers. You've prolly thought of most of these already, but alas, I just can't resist helping. :-) 1 - Increase manufacturing batch sizes. Ammo runs bumped from 100 units per run to 1000. Advanced materials get similar 10X boost. 2 - Increase blueprint copy time. 3 - Decrease weapon rate of fire. Increase their damage to compensate, or leave it alone instead of increasing ship's shields and armor as has been proposed. 4 - Increase mining laser cycle time, increase ore per cycle to compensate. 5 - Set up stations with large buy orders (at low prices) for leftover minerals and ore so that players can sell this stuff wherever they are and get it out of their assets. Think "vendor trash" in most online games. 6 - Limit station hanger size. Or charge players rent for storing a large number of items in a station hanger. Goal is to force players to recycle items and sell materials they don't need to slim down their assets (works with item 5 above). 7 - Set up a parcel service similar to the mail system in world of warcraft. This will cut down on transport runs, making the game more fun and reducing jumps per system. Perhaps only works in high security space. Definately shouldn't work in 0.0. 8 - Eliminate the ability to copy bookmarks. Keep them as items that can be bought/sold/given/traded etc, just not copied. 9 - Toughen up and reduce the number of NPC ships. Less ammo being flung around, fewer numbers to crunch.
Dionysus Davinci on 04 November 2005
Sorry, what did you say? I was distracted by the dancing pictures.
Paul Castrin on 04 November 2005
Simple fix for bookmarks: limit the total you can have at any time. Make it a reasonable number like 300-400. That will allow people to keep the ones they use (or simply value) and get rid of the ones they don't. Give all sufficent warning to cull their lists then cap everyone at the same time. (maybe based on date created?) Don't eliminate copying as that won't fix the problem of those that already have 1000+ BMs and will only punnish newer players for their excess. Also have you thought of how much lag is caused by evemail? I didn't see it in the graphic above but I think it's stored on the server. Serious thought to eliminating old messages should made. Maybe only retaining them for 60 days? I know that till I wiped out the evemail I had stored (which I had accumilated from over a year+ of playing) the client would lag baddly when evemail was opened. Just some thoughts.
Zoea on 04 November 2005
YARRRRRRRDWARE is the only answer! Dual Core Opteron's naturally. Why not get 1 or 2 servers made up and swap rens onto them and see what happens :) I bet you could even use your current memory. Unless you bought RDRam, but then, if you did, you need a good attribute nerfing.
Boonaki on 05 November 2005
Shhh, they don't want you to know EVE is running on a 486 SX 25.
Mohaan on 05 November 2005
This really shows how much the folks at CCP care about their players. Thanks for the info :) Keep up the good work
Gerontiq on 05 November 2005
way to go Oveur Cheers for the info; good luck with the optimizations and improvements. Oh and Dragon's Rage 4tl :)
Glarion Garnier on 05 November 2005
What is with tech 2 component production when ever I build them there is this delay of 30 seconds or so per component produced + the actual production time. It would make more sense if you could only build them in batches of 10 or 25 or 50 or 100. Prolly less lag if it worked that way
Joerd Toastius on 05 November 2005
tfti :)
Tusko Hopkins on 05 November 2005
Oveur, could you please also explain if clients connected to different proxies are experiencing the SOL lag in the same way? We had fleet battles where half of the people could play (some lag) and others where even the overview was failing and not showing anything. Does it make a difference which proxy a client is connected to (theoretically no, because that "ring" chains them all)? If it does make a difference can we do something to limit the effects of this?
Facetious One on 05 November 2005
Opinions are like rectums..... So I gave mine.
VantDre on 05 November 2005
I'm kinda suprised to have this shared with us, I feel scared because of the level of disclosure here. It could be an overt attempt to calm us or a way to open the door to hackers if not only slightly. EVE being modular and multithreaded is great. I have alot of strong opinnions, but sql isn't exactly the greatest out there, of course making your own database is monsterous. I'm inclined to agree with Mahhy, and also suprised EVE was never designed for multiple cpus for SOL servers and multiple SOL servers running one SOL, this is the natural next step. To me this would be a must from step 1. Losing subscribers because of this is silly. Players will always want to gather in one spot, and even support for CPUs for the SOL servers needs to be able to shift. This for me is very noticable with many players moving in huge fleets around my game space. I've worked with IBM they are great. I love linux but its flaws are security and large OS changes for the user. oh and everything is smaller in assembly.. :) >,...,<
Mesuno on 05 November 2005
Hmmm.. tried to post earlier but it didn't appear... As an alternative to physically moving agents why not promote or demote various agents in the corps. For instance a popular L3 Q20 agent in a busy system could be 'promoted' to head up a new mining office.. becoming an l4 q0 mining agent. All the LP's are kept as they are with the agent, people don't HAVE to move, but there would be now more useful agents in the nearby systems. It would seem to be less blunt than 'ooh, i've moved stations, sorry' and would fit the storyline a bit better as internal developments and corp politics evolving.
Pusher Bott on 05 November 2005
Ranschoeten whined: --- the coming change is a *nerf*. It's a nerf. Nothing but. --- What the hell is with people like you, anyway? Why are you on such a crusade to point out that it is a nerf? It isn't like you're on the cross here. Tux even said in the last thread that it was a nerf in many ways. We know there's a bit of nerf involved here, we know that this is the way it is going to be. Get over it, move on, and learn to use the new drone system. Oveur's going out of his way to explain the hows and whys of everything that's going on (which, if you've played other MMPORGs before, you know this is an amazing thing for devs to do), and you're shi*tting up the thread whining about stuff we know and criticizing their efforts to make the game better. Shut the hell up. That said; Thanks Oveur, I find it interesting to know how all this works. I have noticed a bit of lag lately, but I'm also currently based in Inoue, so I can't really bitch about it :) I'd also like to second the idea of not being able to copy bm's. There would be very few people who bookmarked entire regions; bm's would likely be limited to the most travelled routes. I'd guess most people don't use more than 10% of the bookmarks they own now (I know I don't).
Mistralis on 05 November 2005
Pusher Bott: I Understand that the developers are trying to make the game better and bigger, but please understand that there are players that will see months worth of skilltraining go down the drain and that they are somewhat upset about that. Sure, It`s good for the game in a whole, but the personal drama isn`t less. This is the second time I will be hit quite hard with the nerfbat being a missile and drone specialist. Allso please note that most of the comments here are mostly give constructive critisism next to some whining.
John McCreedy on 05 November 2005
OK I maybe over simplifying things here but why not add more locations with quality agents and basically allow for a more even distribution across Eve? Seems to me that those areas are the most accessbile and generally have the best agents. If there's more angents of similar quality then people won't tend to congrigate in those systems. There (hopefully) will be a more even spread of people across space.
jedi2005 on 05 November 2005
oveur, what do you mean with "sol server"? Is it a sun server running the solaris OS ? And if its a sun server running the solaris OS, has every "sol server" a 1-on-1 relation with 1 physical sun server or are all "sol servers" part of just 1 big physical sun server (and maybe software/hardware partitioned) ? Or am I completely wrong ? ;-) And I suppose the sql server is a IBM (INTEL?) system running windows 32 bits ? an hp guy. ;-) (and that doesnt stand for hitpoints ;-))
BBQ on 05 November 2005
Nice ideas. The move to 64bit O/S and 64 bit CPU's (hopefully AMD as they kill Inhell's on database work) will increase the ammount of resources that the servers have. Look forward to following all of this through the rough and smooth that it WILL bring as people get use to the changes. BTW We so need a timeout on secure cans, if not opened for 3 months they go pop would be a good one. If you have been to some of the busy 1.0 > 0.7 system you will see that some have more cans than roids, its getting to be a joke.
Ivellios on 05 November 2005
Sometimes it is difficult for the end user to see all the wisdom of the developers when sweeping changes are made. Thank you for the explaination. I will try and have more faith in the future.
maximyus on 05 November 2005
Ok i'm still wondering about this lag everybody seems to get except me ?
Ryu Soma on 06 November 2005
moving to 64bit (AMD) system would help out a lot in terms of some lag, but there is no program that exsits that is perfect, well done for the explaination, it is great that we get these updates.
Ryiah Thesa on 06 November 2005
Thanks for explaining us how things work and where they break (if they break). :P That's why I love CCP, DEV - Customers relations have always been pretty good. I'd go as far as saying the best in the many MMORPG's I've played so far.
Takigama on 06 November 2005
This all screams "we cant solve the real problems, so we're gunna keep dancing around and changing things and hope something solves it".. figure out a way of making a single system like Jita work across multiple servers, and you solve all your problems at once. It is going to cost you customers, both in the short term and the long term until you put together a real solution rather than just nerfing or trying to push people around in the game. in reality, its very sad to see.
Takigama on 06 November 2005
oh, and btw, if you dont know how to make a single system work across multiple servers, why not have a chat to mythic, or sony or any of the other mmo's. They all use some kind of subscriber message bus's in the backend and most of them are client centric. Well, thats my 2c. you say theres no "i win" button for your problems, but i still say if you can make that work, it'd come dam close.. And as i've said all along, you nerf because somethings too powerful, thats ok, but when you nerf because your servers are breaking your just commiting suicide.
Mitram on 06 November 2005
I was just about to post in the Game Dev Forum that the servers start become slower again (even only on 11k people online) Since you mention it here I will not post it anymore. The big ram disk seems not the whole solution. Anyway, I am glad that your game supports an infinit number of items a player can use. This is a key feature of this game. Just one note from a developer: When you start to optimize your db design and server code, do a real-time based hierarchical profiling to identify unnecessary slow code and the real hotspots. If you find too many functions that are all contributing to a hotspot try to bring them together to eleminate some of the work and to give the compiler a chance to optimize better.
Duffs on 06 November 2005
well all i have to say is What about the barges....i mean they are a wet paper bag lol...with the med barge drone bay cut in half it will be able to only hold 2 meds and 1 light...i dont know how those 3 drones can take out 5 at once....you guys can kept sayin that ohh they will do the same damage or even more...Well how about u take your 5 little drones and fight 10 rats in uhmm .5 space or what ever and ill take my 8 or 10....its all about the numbers for drones...if u do cut the bays why not leave the barges out of it..Or i have an idea make barges stronger and maybe Have Weps...then i would be happyly mineing away...rat pops up ill launch my little 5 drones and activate the guns on the barge....
Temper on 06 November 2005
interesting
Temper on 06 November 2005
Enter MY 2 cents worth . . . Given: Eve will grow Given: People always congregate. For what ever reason agent, chat, nexus of highways, corp. grouping/meetings, ect. the list can be endless, But one thing is for sure people will get together. This is good though it is stupid to have a universe as complex as EVE with no central hubs. SO, the problem then becomes how to deal with it. a) Agents - Moving agents, maybe, higher ranking agents should be in lower sec space, at least for combat mission agents. - Skill based, i.e. create agent system similar to the trade skills that allow use of agents from a distance partly based on agent standing and partly on skill level
Temper on 06 November 2005
b) Bookmarks - Instas are a player creation to deal with the player problem of moving quickly between systems. This should have been delt with already by removing their need. Obviously the majority of people want a new travel system cuz of the use of instas. So, the answer is also obvious, an option should be added to autopilot (weather manually activated at each jump, or marked for always on) to ‘jump to gate’ within the 2500m jump range.
Temper on 06 November 2005
c) Drones - Lowering their number a temporary fix at best, and it sacrifices the ‘coolness’ of commanding. **visions of Battlesstar Galactica or Return of the Jeti, Death Star fight screen come to mind ** That is what makes Gal. cool and why I chose it as a race. - With out getting in to the numbers, it is obvious that fewer drones: 1. Are easier to kill because the time it takes to target and kill 5 is less that 15. 2. With 5 doesn’t really work ‘overloading’ an opponent as 15 would, and the lost of 1/5 is much greater than 1/15. 3. This is a big one, since combat in EVE last less than a min (mostly) multiple waves in your bay are rather useless given the time it takes to get them out and attack target.
Temper on 06 November 2005
Summing up. This is all bullshit in the log run. EVE will continue to grow and unless CCP can deal with 500 players in one system we will be back here again. Systems have to be spanned over multiple CPUs. Sorry for the length, but if opinions were like assholes, I’d be the biggest ass.
Futher Bezluden on 06 November 2005
Just a suggestion to reduce lag. How about removing all the secured cans from 1.0 to 0.8 systems and adding a self destruct code for drones abandoned in space for 8 hours. Anywhere you scan you pick up drones that are irretrievable. As BM's go, since you can't smartbomb at gates, allow players to warp within 300-5km of gates and stations. BM's definitely need to be sorted with so many people selling instas in E-Screw and copying them. E-Screw -just get rid of it, so many scams that legit items get bumped in 2 hours. Let everything be put on the market.
Futher Bezluden on 06 November 2005
I like the idea of secure can timers, 2 weeks of inactivity and Pooof -yeah, everything in it being lost. tough, must not have wanted the stuff that bad if you didn't use it for 2 weeks. Off topic> I don't see how halving all drone bays will improve performance one bit. Fewer drones with better stats sure, but not halved bays.
Caztra Tor on 06 November 2005
What an awesome idea! But could you look into a few things before finalizing the drone changes: 1. Give large drones a tad more speed. 2. Make an accomadation for the need of ships w/ the smaller drone bays and that rely on missles to effectively deal w/ the frigs. Especially shield tanks, which, as everyone knows, can not function for long compared to an amor tank. Thank you ever so much for listening. Think balance. And don't work it so as to Gimp the Raven, but maybe, you will put some thought into that . . .
Galffin on 06 November 2005
I am all for optimization, even for moving agents around. Personallyl I avoid systems that have major lag but there are a few points I think are important here. First is that people *want* major systems that have a lot of population. Most importantly in my opinion they become trading hubs which I believe are vital. I know I don't want to have to travel 15 jumps around a region just to fit a ship, especially if you remove BMs. If it is at all possible to share system load between multiple CPUs I am sure the playbase will love you for it. Second is bookmarks. I love BMs, they play a vital part of the game for me. They allow me to safely travel through all but the most dangerious areas, and most importantly to me allow speedy travel in slow ships. However they have to be changed and if you want get rid of them I have a couple of suggestions. Either make them untradeable on escrow (people will work around this if they really want), or make using a BM to a major spot such as station or jumpgate take you to a set number of km from it. Finally, I know I said this before, but please don't have the moros be able to launch only 5 drones, it completely destroys the feel of the ship and optimization is not a valid excuse to do this. If for example you were in a situation where you have multiple moros launching 15-20 drones each, I seriously doubt those drones are going to be one of the major load issues for the cpu.
vanBuskirk on 07 November 2005
I have no particular problem with agents being moved, but may I request that the high-sec agents stay in high-sec? I can see a real possible problem with people already low on ammo, armour and structure being ganked on the way back to their agent's station. This sort of thing is exactly the reason why I, and I am sure thousands of others, stay with high-sec agents despite the lower rewards.
Myeye's inPF on 07 November 2005
With all these new drone skill and recent skills added.... are we going to get clones that cover our skill points?
Emeline Cabernet on 07 November 2005
What about the agents that became bugged from the cold war patch? when will you fix them? Theres alot systems now in low sec with multiple +20 agents. Please fix it, no need for more than 1 +20 of each lvl. Get some low quality back in there so people could again work their way up.
Tresh Keen on 07 November 2005
Inoue and Isaziwa only have that many players around because there are some Agents - i'm there too - it is the best place for me as high sec mission runner. You dont have to move the agents - just add some more lvl 4 - Q19 or Q20 in others systems and i will move to them ;-). But anyway -> Great work CCP!
Soraya Silvermoon on 07 November 2005
Idea: Since everyone gather in the middle of the galaxy and in systems like rens n yulai n jita n such... I think you guys know what characterize thouse systems so how about spliting them up and make several of them around the 0,0 boarder and place the low sec space in the middle... I know I would not go further into empire if I could shop my stuff on the boarder. And allso it would make sense having more police/navy in the front lines just have a few low sec systems befoe 0,0 so ppl with less than -5 sec rating dont get bummed...
Soraya Silvermoon on 07 November 2005
ooh and I`d love to have an "avoid Rens" button on my autopilot :>
Grismar on 07 November 2005
I knew the agent move would come eventually. I don't like it and I don't have to, but I see why it is needed. I would like to request one thing though: -PLEASE- release new datasheets with the RMR patch. If at all possible, release them -before- the actual patch. I have a very succesful website that is used and appreciated by literally 1000's of players. I'd hate to have to disappoint them by getting my database broken by lack of data. And I'm not the only developer of supporting tools that lean heavily on the data you, the devs, released. I'm sure you're aware of the importance of the entire culture surrounding EVE and the role that sites like mine play in that.
HankMurphy on 07 November 2005
all i can say is: Thanks for the explanation!! We may or may not like certain changes that you make, but when you take the time to give us detailed explanations for why you are making certain changes, and aren't making others.. well... not only is my confidence in you lifted... but you can put me down for another year and a half! (ps, i'd keep an eye on that BM situation, i'm sure were gonna see some ppl taking huge advantage of that now that its been brought to light)
Takigama on 07 November 2005
just one small comment about the comments: "Other MMO's are usually doing a monolithic design (one big supercomputer) which do not scale very well or they have a distributed design but have physical assignment of threads to CPU's where a thread is running a geographical part of the universe but do instancing which they can run abstract from the geography because the instanced location has nothing to do with the geography and thus does not matter to the universe." where on earth did that come from, this is completely untrue of any mmo i've heard of (unless this is talking about really small ones), most mmo's operate across many machines, have a component based design (i.e. one part of the code deals with player interactions, another part deal with markets or whatever) and everythings tied together with a backend bus framework. The point being, they scale incredibly well because to cope with aditional load, you just add a server. The players dont know the difference because the players arent tied to a single machine when they are in a specific place in the game. Er go, when a user connect they connect to any node in the infrastructure, even if the person they are whallopping is several nodes distant from them..
xJillianx on 07 November 2005
I dont know if this was mentioned. But why not have bookmarks be saved on the users computer. Why not change the load to have the user process certain things. That is such a simple fix. Just change where the data is acquired from. This way if someone has a crappy computer they are hurt by copying massive BM's. Dont give gamers a reason not to continue upgrading their computers, give them a reason to continue to upgrade thier computers.
xJillianx on 07 November 2005
I dont know if this was mentioned. But why not have bookmarks be saved on the users computer. Why not change the load to have the user process certain things. That is such a simple fix. Just change where the data is acquired from. This way if someone has a crappy computer they are hurt by copying massive BM's. Dont give gamers a reason not to continue upgrading their computers, give them a reason to continue to upgrade thier computers.
Impericus on 07 November 2005
buurp
Adam000 on 07 November 2005
Copying bookmarks is problem for servers? Idio#%%#$ - it is problem becouse you doing it wrong - why you send each individula "copy action" to client comp? On server it should take just seconds and then send info to client. Same problem is with actions on multiple items in hangars and containers. And all this "actions" after players ship destruction? Kill-mails before player even see his ship exploding? ...and who-knows what else sended to clients comps - it generate lag enabling easy pod-killing - why do you do it this way?
StealthNet on 08 November 2005
Gowd, I asked for such explanations since beta... :O Saying it would be nice to have ppl understand how eve works... And tbh I felt in love with this one hahahaha
Genki SG on 08 November 2005
First of all: Thank you again, Oveur, for this nice blog Second: It amazes me how people don't see that this need for lag reduction can only be fulfilled by changes like that (i.e. drones "nerf" and YARRDWARE) in such short time. I can imagine the rewrite of the effects system is/was a sh*tload of work and maybe there are more things to be rewritten in order to make eve lag free. But as a matter of fact those rewrites take up lots of time, and i mean LOTS of time(think in years). Time in which there will be less fixes for other problems and less content updates (those contents which need some lines of code to work)... plus, you will have lag all the way till these improvements are written. I know these improvements have to be done (and i really hope some poor souls at CCP are working on these atm ;)) but i honestly prefere these short term changes. As for the drone-"nerf": I am a drone freak, but i don't consider these changes to be a waste of skilltraining time as some do since it doesn't change the amount of damage the drones do. And smartbombs? I don't care about smartbombs cos the drones will have more hp, thus making them withstand those nasty smartbombs longer (I have never seen a player target individual drones to shoot them. So this argument doesn't count for me.). And whats more: Smartbombs aren't used at gates anyway so... you get the picture ;) I don't want to talk about the drone numbers cos i don't give a sh*t about the number of drones out as long as they kill my target in the same time! >:) Wow! Freaking big comment...
Khatred on 08 November 2005
The only problem I have with the Next Gen manufacturing and with the griefing posibilities that arise from here. Say Day 1 from patch I put all the bpos into queue, everything goes smooth, Day 8 I find that I get first in only 75% of the slots. So now suddenly I have to move huge quantities of minerals and I might be forced to do that over and over again each week. Doesn't look nice. I just hope that somwhere I misunderstood. And really, out of curiosity why didn't you try the following approach first: increase batches for ammo (because in all honesty, who makes only 100 ammo and even if a small % do, how often they do that), for t2 comps (really, how many t2 comp producers are making units of 1?) and for mods that get build faster add the otpion to build in batches of 1,5,10,25,50,100?
tropic28 on 08 November 2005
Talking with people who have played eve from near the begining this is just another Nerf to reduce lag and like the rest will not last long. Perhaps you should go with the dual core multi cpu model for a start, AMD 64 chipsets are far better than the intel ones so far. Secondly do a full optimisation of your code and strip out all library calls. Replace those calls with just the bits you need not the full library "coz its easier to code that way" for this you will need really good C programers not just average ones Good ones and really good ones try recruiting from the finite stress analysis world where they know how to code tight for speed. and lastly try spending some of the 1.6 million dollars a month on a major hardwre buy and spread the loads out further. Short term fixes are for loser's sort it out properly or it will fail again Any one for pirates of the burning seas?? at least there you know the ship will sink !!
Magic Bob on 08 November 2005
One system per CPU = Lag One system per Server = Lag If you have to set a thread per object do it on a 'per user' level and buy more hardware.
Kylun on 08 November 2005
"Since we're talking about examples, lets not forget bookmarks. We've seen a lot of speculation that they possibly can't be a server load. Well, they sure are. Copying a couple of hundred bookmarks takes serious CPU time on SOL and SQL servers, so take this as a hint. If you're doing thousands, you might be killing a couple of pour soul in combat somewhere. " lag caused by copying bms? sounds like a damn poor coding here. delegate this directly to the sql layer. nevermind. I 'm very grateful for finding eve, it's a wonderful game. I will give CCP some trust on these changes. I don't like changes in the middle of a game, souds like someone is cheating or breaking his word, but in this case I have hope that the changes will be for the best. good luck
Kylun on 08 November 2005
adding... why dont give the players a way to know how is the current load on the current system? this way we can avoid potential laggy situations before becoming critical...
Zzazzt on 08 November 2005
Nice one Ov - I want to subcontract my work presentations to you ;)
res0nance on 08 November 2005
NERF LAG
icomeinpiece on 09 November 2005
ok, when you guys nerfed missiles, I warned you that it would increase server lag. You could have reduced missile damage and used the missile skills to increase it again, rather than make the system compute velocity and sig radius everytime a missile is fired. Now.... you're gonna nerf drones in order to reduce lag that another nerf created. Good job. Keep doin this and one day, you can make a nice little server ops animation that shows them all as down an unable to come back up. Try usin your heads guys. Or ask me next time. BTW are you ganna increase my mining drones mining amount in order to compensate for that or have you forgotten that not all drones are combat ones? Call me, we'll do lunch.
Leowen on 09 November 2005
OMG OMG OMG there's no 'I Win' button??!!!?? OMGOMGOMGWTF??!! But I been looking sooo long... Seriously though, instead of building up a huge amount of lag-combating measures in RMR, why not throw in the easy stuff as and when? Making all T2 Component BPO's multi-run a la ammo is a VERY obvious measure... Those 32-second factory runs must be creating a huuuuge drain on the yarrrrdware...
Khan Ruul on 09 November 2005
A bit off the subject, but how about a note at the top of the news site about the condition of the server, etc? I'm sitting here looking all over trying to find out why I can't connect. At this point, I don't even know if the game is running. Please tell us.
Butch Wahala on 09 November 2005
ok ... here's my take. All this scares me. Reason EVE is so much fun and addictive is because of it's depth (at least to me). I read that you are going to reduce the depth so more players can play. So, as player base increases the fun of playing decreases so as not to overload the servers. Hmmm too bad you guys developed a really good game, and now it is going to eat you. I suppose in this way it will be self leveling. Folks will quit, and you can then add complexity again then folks will come and you can take it away ... or move to multi shard style gaming (yuk). Try this; Get all the programmers to play musical chairs ... so that a different programmer is looking at the code of another ... possibly finding some dumb stuff that causes it to use too much resources ... dunno .. too bad u cant put more of the load on the clients ... ha ha ... well good luck anyway.
Guntaro on 09 November 2005
ok, drones use up CPU, so does bookmarks. What about all those secure anchored containers in space? Do they add to the load? Many of those containers are not even used and are abandoned. If they are CPU intensive why not get rid of them altogether and give everyone password settable jettison containers to use which self destruct after an hour?
spRAYed on 09 November 2005
I'd like to know what the EvE-Server runs on. Plus, most of the changes that CCP made worked out fine. But i'm worried. Someone on the CCP website mentions the goal of 100.000 people playing EvE all at once. If we already have to NERF (yes i said nerf) drones by half to reduce lag. Then y not remove drones from game right now instead of making people learn AGES for something we cant get to use eventually. I can see ships with 1 gun and 1 drone because Turrets and Drones cause lag......now that wont be much fun would it? I appreciate the information we get and please consider what i said as MY OPINION and not as an assault to the Dev's.
kiril on 09 November 2005
Oh ... don't tell me you are going to nerf drones, when I'm on the way to complete the training of drone interfacing level V ! And about the bookmarks, if the point is the copy of huge amount of them, why don't you simply disallow multi selection, or copy of multi selection ? So we don't loose the benefits of bookmarks, and your cluster don't suffer the load of massive batch copy.
Chuckar on 09 November 2005
After having implemented an SQL Cluster much smaller than yours, I can appreciate the complexities of the system your are trying to optimize. I only want to say this game and the hardware or YARRDWARE behind it are simply amazing. Not to mention your software. I would love to take a look at your network sometime, I know I could learn a thing or two. Good Job CCP!!
Babalon on 09 November 2005
This Is ALTNAMES Favorite ALTERNATE CHARACTER. I have told you, and few believed me, Missiles were changed and now embarrasingly useless because of the TACKLER LOBBY, and now DRONES are being made USELESS, by that same lobby. Lol, nobody sees the NERFS at all, notably the SKILLS. At first ALL drones will be NERFED into USELESS, POWERLESS, and UTTERLY HIT-POINTLESS wastes of money. Leveling up the skills listed above, no doubt level 5 skills requiring perhaps god knows how long to return drones unto their former stats. And as MISSILES, the promise of MORE POWERFUL missiles after SKILLING UP, is COMPLETELY FALSE. Expect drones to in reality do less damage, due to tracking, and become useless points of embarassment.
Gajiin on 10 November 2005
A simple optimization that is less drastic than moving agents... Don't have agents from neighboring systems send players to busy systems. I'm not sure if its sufficient, but it would certainly help.
Chenlab on 10 November 2005
Any chance of fixing the current drone bugs before this drones thingy goes down?
Will Basthard on 11 November 2005
I am all for this new sweeping change. The open, honest information is what we were begging for in 2003/2004 and you have been taking leaps and bounds in these areas. This blog and the new customers you get every week is fruition of your hard labors. GO CCP GO!
Arleonenis on 11 November 2005
as i like instas i know that few k of them could be a bad idea, but removing bookmarks completly is stupid, not for instas but i for example when doing missions set bms on cans to return later after i finish mission with fast cargo vessel. Same as bms in most camped systems or fast instas to mine. So my idea is to simply limit a number of bms anyone could have inpeoples&places to like 50(100 maybe) and not allow them to be set to containers/hangars just direct trade on them, this would fix many issues and still it would be able to go on instas in most dangerous places, you just need to manage your bms and think which ones are most important for you
Arleonenis on 11 November 2005
and i support idea of anchorable containers going pop if it isnt reanchored from time to time (or just updated with new "fix anchoring" option), but 2-3 months is to long, i say like 2 weeks top is best here
Thorval on 12 November 2005
Regarding Bookmark copying: If you drag and drop a load of bookmarks onto an open folder it will have to generate an icon for each one thereby taking alot longer and using up resources needlessly. Hint: Drop your load of bookmarks onto the tab (the word) of a closed folder ( while another folder is open) ...that way icons or images for each bm dont have to be created thereby taking MUCH less time and resources.
killmc on 13 November 2005
why not set up a new sever system to tie in with the one now and do mult servers like all outer big mmog and tie them so maket and mish over lap on them so if one bissy you can relog in dif server and keep going on your way
killmc on 13 November 2005
you alrdy got the test servers why not just expand it and tie in with the outer seriver and there for 2x your load cap and cut all lag by 1/3 to 1/2 easy now stop nefting my ships plz
Zigadenus on 15 November 2005
I'm glad I finally read this but frankly, until these issues have been successfully addressed, you need to remove this: "Dynamic Tactical Combat with combat situations ranging from small skirmishes to 100 player fleet battles." from the features page because that is straight up false advertising.
Raven Seldon on 16 November 2005
Quote: Since we're talking about examples, lets not forget bookmarks. We've seen a lot of speculation that they possibly can't be a server load. Well, they sure are. Copying a couple of hundred bookmarks takes serious CPU time on SOL and SQL servers, so take this as a hint. If you're doing thousands, you might be killing a couple of pour soul in combat somewhere. I'd rather wouldn't put the blame on users. Players/users don't see this. Thanks for looking into the lag problem though!!!
bona bona on 17 November 2005
From my observation, I have also found that sometimes having too things in too many different station can add to the lag. But I am not 100% sure
Jareth Yarrick on 18 November 2005
I have no idea how this stuff works most of the time, I like the idea that me copying bookmarks somewhere affects combat somewhere else (is this how non-linear dynamics works in the external universe) - but you guys built a universe, you make it rock, and you keep growing the baby up, in the pretense of us layabouts having a laugh and blowing things up. Eve rocks, so thank you, and have fun tinkering with the magic in your system. S
Locust L on 20 November 2005
NPC are killing realizm, killing EVE future, killing old playes, rising cpu load, killing promised innovations, creating thousands of problems. At rise time of EVE, 3 years ago it was not so crazy mutch NPC things and players as now, and it was mutch more future and optimism in building process of EVE. It was mutch more PvP trading, mass PvP battles, gang PvP misions and real fun. Now EVE is a big piece of plastic. EVE devs choised a way to the massive single player game. EVE going to die? Player constructable scheme of corporations? Planet landing? Interactive ship control? Multiplayer of the single ship control? Unstacked asteroids, moons, planets (solar systems?) ? Newton physics? - i know there wold be no one of this. So, smbd go in, smbd out. :`(
Legendas Lothandar on 23 November 2005
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it" is the slogan of the complacent, the arrogant or the scared. It's an excuse for inaction. It's a mindset that assumes (or hopes) that today's realities will continue tomorrow in a tidy, linear and predictable fashion. Pure fantasy. In this sort of culture, you won't find people who proactively take steps to solve problems as they emerge." If you were making some ground breaking upgrade that is going to change the face of the game, yes, changes are needed. In the computer world though, fixing things that are not broken is just asking for problems. Unless that fix is going to make changes for the better on a larger global scale. Like say a full blown server or software upgrade. All you at CCP seem to ever been doing though, is totally screwing entire skill lines. You add a half dozen or so new skill that we now need to train, only to end up half as effective as we were before your so called upgrade. You "fix" things that are not broken which end up as a nerf and turing it to crap, and don't touch the things that actually need attention. PS - And how long have we been waiting for advanced hybrid ammo, jove space access, other bloodlines and numerous other things? Yet all you all want to do is screw up and nerf entire skill trees.
Imda Guy on 25 November 2005
I would be more willing to go along with this if you implemented a maximum concurrent user cap at the same time. Otherwise this will just happen again. If you are really trying to improve the game for us players then fine, but I must admit I'm a little suspicious that this whole thing is about fitting more players on the server.
rgreat on 28 November 2005
Then optimise server software. Or move drone computing to the client side or another separate computer. Just do not simply cut it. 5 drones max drone carriers... it is just plain wrong. I can even live with limiting drone numbers in one single system. Like limiting ALL users to 5 drones in system where already 30-60 drones present. That way it will not harm anyone in smaller traffic systems. It is not like drones are main force in large battles.
rgreat on 28 November 2005
Just becouse top loaded 10 systems are lagged you want to screw ALL systems? And why drones then? Not like these systems have constant large scale drone battles. How about move out NPC/marketing on another computer for these systems? I suppose these provide most lag. NOT drones.
rgreat on 28 November 2005
And finally... buy 10 hi-end computers for these high lag systems. You got more users, right? You must pay for support more. Good luck.
Sivlar Sylvannathas on 29 November 2005
Another thing regarding the lag, if nerfing drones if your solution for fixing lag this game is going to go down the toilet fast. How about you upgrade your hardware, or even split the player base into two servers since your crap systems cannot handle 17K concurrent users. Do something to upgrade your hardware if you only goal is to have bragging rights in the MMO world regarding concurrent users. How about you all do something about fixing all the JUNK floating around in systems. Example, I fly into a system and do a scan. What do I find? Over 60 abandon drones, 20 some odd abandon shuttles, and maybe 15 or so abandon starter ships, not to mention the hundreds of secure cans floating around with gay messages on them. I will put money down, that having crap like that in every system causes way more lag then people using drones.
Cirale on 01 December 2005
something on BMs that I have not seen mentioned, that I think would be an easy and effective fix. Remove the ability to BM within, say, 100km of any superstructure, IE station or stargate. this keeps the integrity and utility of marking space for mining, safety, loot, or whatever, while cutting down on the majority of BM lag. Next, allow players to warp to 5km. after warp bubble collapse, the resulting inertia should easily put the ship in jump range, effectively allowing an "insta". perhaps remove the aggression timer on 0.0 gates to increase PvP action in no-sec space to compensate. Theres no cops there, what do the gates care if you shoot someone? I think a good 90% if not more of my BMs are gate to gate/station. with this idea, the 10% that have value for everything but travel remain, and the reasons for having the other 90% is gone.
Tolmech on 06 December 2005
Ideas on lag reduction 1. Put a maximum number of BM, say 30, pilots can use for everyday activities, mining pvp etc but dont get to map the universe. However! in compensation allow the AUTOMATIC USE of afterburners or MWD so empire travel is not too boring. This would also offer new play in pirate/anti pirate tatics. 2. Massively reduce your database crud overnight with the automatic garbage recycle button, giving you isk for crud at a greatly reduced value of the build materials of an item. 20,000 peoples crud goes poof overnight. 3. Migrate popular area orbit items, if one area is overcrowded can u not split it like there is a pseudo jump gate between them, allowing you for the moment until a hardward/software method is available to split single areas onto multiple cpu. if you cant do it this way then move the most popular stations in the systems to seperate unpopular places (the pied piper solution). 4. The nasty politically uncorrect thing to say: dont sign more players up :((((( ooooo yes but hey when your systems starts creaking and bolts are flying across the room in great clouds of steam it may be time to apply the brakes. 5. Long term I think looking at grid technology (0|-ac1e 10g) is perhaps the way to go, software/hardware systems that natively load balance surely provide a better infrastructure to support load adaptive necessary applications.
XW 13462 on 08 December 2005
All tech ppl might want to look here: http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/hardware/crossplatform.ars/4
Silentblue1987 on 11 December 2005
this'll be great.. adding in an AMD blade should help out greatly, all the comps I have are AMD and all run games at jacked up resolutions, anti-aliasing to 4x, and even anisotropic filtering to 6x.. They run smoothly, even getting over 33fps.. I'd like to see how an AMD stands up to an Intel in a server setup.. Keep us geeks posted on the server performances ^_^
Silberhaar on 17 December 2005
I did not readed all comments. Just my 2 cents: If bookmarks are causing CPU load, why not just put in instant jumps to remove the need of bookmarks? Another solution to lower load would be to relocate some stargates in nearby less loaded systems. Third thing is to relocate some stations also in less loaded systems. Further implement the next patch step by step adding the most important stuff first. (Like new Ships, BPOs and Skills.) Then add the modification to the NPC pirates later after the first step is running stable. And so on.
Dreamstar on 17 December 2005
I am pretty new to Eve, but not to clustering and large commercial DB architecture. Question: Is there an overview of your current Eve hardware?
Nobody I on 17 December 2005
Suprising, the weel whith an rubber band is finding out, and before the band is flat CCP think thats is must replacing it. But CCP dont change the rubberband but they changing all the bicycle, they finding out the weel again becouse they ar affraid for >>> "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" is the slogan of the complacent, the arrogant or the scared. It's an excuse for inaction. It's a mindset that assumes (or hopes) that today's realities will continue tomorrow in a tidy, linear and predictable fashion. Pure fantasy. In this sort of culture, you won't find people who proactively take steps to solve problems as they emerge. <<< This is not pure fantasy, this is fishfull thinking of the doomsday thath this is comming becouse they are afraid of an flat rubber band itself and the problems they can get on that time. Come to the reality, RMR is that doom senario now, all of the things where you affraid of is, is now hapening the last 3 days. CCP is trapping in his own gate of terror - thats is what here is hapening of my idea.
Qismah Signum on 17 December 2005
Wow. I really appreciate real communication from the devs like this and not all the generic answer crap that Blizzard spews out. I'm hanging around. Don't go making CCP broke and do keep yerselves on decent wages before going too over the top with hardware spending, heh. :)
Dadanen1 on 17 December 2005
dang, I would need to know more about SOL and SQL servers to understand and give suggestions to fixing problems, but since I only slightly touched the subject in my MS course in college I can't give an answer, oh well good luck with this game devs, if you even read the comments :P ,although I prefer AMD over Intel, I would still recommend AMD, but thats is your choice, If Intel blades gives more performance than AMD take Intel because I wont stop you, let alone have the ability to with the whole ocean in the way here.
TheFold on 18 December 2005
Nice blog. I'd have to agree with Qismah in that it's nice to have this kind of honest communication from the devs. I work with SQL irl myself, although nowhere near on this kind of scale, but I know all about the physical hardware slowing things up when everyone wants something there and then...if only my boss would agree to a RAMSAN >;)
Dawn Verragan on 18 December 2005
Another example of perfect information politics. Keep going on :)
DunMage on 18 December 2005
Excellent stuff - your communication and service should be the envy of the MMO world. Thanks
Krii on 18 December 2005
"You see, the problem with our 10 hotspot systems is the fact that a single solar system, with all its activity - like Agents/NPC's, Dungeons, Stations etc. - can only run on a single CPU. These systems already have their own CPU. (Market-, Corp- and Chat services are not included in this, they are seperate)" That is what I was afraid of when I've came to EVE for the first time and read on the dev blogs that you are using Stackless micro-threads. I'm not saying they are bad thing, I love micro-threading as it enables you to do much more on a single CPU than any other multi-process/thread approach, but in your situation where you can afford yet another server multiprocessing would be a good idea, wouldn't it? You could then launch it on auto-process-balancing cluster (ie. using OpenMosix, or some nifty ORB stuff). I know that this would also impact the core load drasticly but that wouldn't be so bad as being stuck to one CPU and trying to find a solution how to reduce the load. Now, don't get me wrong. Thumbs up for CCP guys! I trust you will come up with something. I really appriciate what you have done with EVE and I'm looking forward what else you will cook up. I'm with you for about 2years now and I'm not planning on leaving anytime soon :)
Nobody I on 18 December 2005
Thumbs up - no way - for me and another people is it all thumbs down on an very negatie manner. CCP is trapping in his own trap, as an couple of naieve girls thats now is gigling whith red on there cheekbones, meanwile there limping on the chest and named this so wunderfull what they are doing but in real time they are the big loosers here. This becouse they cannot building an good tested program but an program whit many bugs, saying first on forhanding thats come from the internet or laying on the users itself, and now on this time they find out there self are the problem, and they can making appolisizes but not for this kind of acusing another people. If CCP an good CCP then they pay back the last 72 hours minimum to the EVE_users for this lazy buggy bad programmed RMR. Nobody
Zauran on 19 December 2005
I was going to write a big post a few hours but the website ate it all up with an infinite loop of "waiting/connecting".... Anyhow the main point is you can have the best, most dedicated programmers - has the product manager originally asked any of the senior programmers "How will Eve perform with 5K users? How about 10K? How about 20K/50K/100K? What will we have to do to achieve those numbers?" Since this was a hard question to answer the only safe way was to build a 100% scalable system. Eve is obviously (and sometimes painfully) not so, because of the microthreading per solar system. I suspect and really hope that another model is currently under development. Otherwise I don't give CCP more than a year before the number of users blows up over the limit nerfing/hardware upgrades can handle. I wouldn't blame any of the programmers/game designers for any of it. I think they did a bloody marvellous job. However, can't say the same about their IT strategic planner.
Lantis Mercuris on 19 December 2005
Two words...Unix Oracle you would get far better performance especially on an application that is threaded properly. Say yes to the 64x64 way HP Super Domes
Lantis Mercuris on 19 December 2005
Forgot some other words. Cache Centric Arrays would go along way to help you out.
xleo13 on 22 December 2005
words are overlapped how can i fix that
radon9 on 23 December 2005
Unix, Oracle and code the core number crunching stuff in C. That gives you fast performance You guys are using Windows, MSSQL and python which is an interpretted language; that has gotta slow you down a bit. (although I bet it has a nice admin GUI) CLI FTW!!
radon9 on 23 December 2005
Oh, I should add that I do appreciate the work that you guys have done. I might disagree with your technology choices, but that doesn't mean that I don't value your hard work. EVE FTW!!
Comanche26 on 02 January 2006
well atleast we know its getting sorted! EVE 4TW!
Haurik Tagelston on 08 January 2006
I feels like you just solving the problems by decreasing the level of gameplay. As cheap as possible...
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